Thursday, January 21, 2016

Scripture Overhead, Conclusion:
The Doctrine of Christ


Part 1 Part 2 | Part 3 Part 4 | Part 5 Part 6 | Part 7

Therefore, blessed are they who humble themselves without being compelled to be humble; or rather, in other words, blessed is he that believeth in the word of God, and is baptized without stubbornness of heart, yea, without being brought to know the word, or even compelled to know, before they will believe.

Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.
—Alma 32:16-17


Before we discuss the most important meaning of this final blood moon of the tetrad, let’s review the information we’ve already discussed. Here are a few points to recall:


www.BloodMoonsComing.com
  1. This blood moon is the most meaningful and most emphatic of the four. It was a super moon, harvest moon, and last blood moon of the tetrad—a tetrad in which all four moons appeared on Jewish holy days. It’s the Lord’s exclamation point.

  2. The moon appeared between three constellations: Pisces (the two fish), Cetus (the whale) and Aquarius (the water bearer.) All these constellations represent water, fire, or both.

  3. The moon also appeared between three heavenly bodies: Neptune, Uranus, and Vesta. Likewise, all three represent water or fire.

  4. This blood moon appeared on the first day of Sukkot, the Jewish feast of tabernacles. It points to the Lord’s coming wedding feast.

  5. This sign vividly recalls Jonah, Ninevah, and coming destruction. It can be properly considered the sign of the prophet Jonah. 

  6. As such, this blood moon is also the sign of the dove (“Jonah” literally means, “dove.”) The sign of the dove always testifies of truth. 

  7. The Age of Pisces (Time of the Gentiles) has ended, and the Fulness of the Gentiles is upon us. The covenant is reverting back to scattered Israel, and the Gentile nations will be destroyed.

  8. World events are aligning to complete the Father’s work. The refugee flood is one of the ways prophecy is being, and will yet be fulfilled. Others are underway as well.

  9. The items I’ve covered in this series are BY NO MEANS exhaustive. There’s more to the story, but I’ve covered what essentials I can, given the constraints of time and post length. Everything in this series has been leading up to this concluding post.
And now, with that refresher in mind, let’s discuss the most important meanings of the testimony overhead.

Historical Context

Humanity’s history demonstrates a continuous cycle of apostasy and restoration. God calls, instructs, and empowers servants to teach His word, and mankind quickly spurns the servants and rejects the message, causing God to withdraw for a time. Then, after each loss, sooner or later, God tries again by sending another servant to teach truth, starting the process again.

The restoration through Joseph Smith found itself in jeopardy as early as 1832, when the Lord condemned the whole church for taking lightly what had been received (D&C 84:53-58)

By 1841, the fulness of the priesthood was taken from the church, and by 1844, the prophet and patriarch were dead. Thus ended the restoration of the gospel in modern times. Incomplete vestiges remained, of course, until they were altered, ignored, and rejected sufficiently that no saving power remained. 

A Return to what was Lost

Now that adequate time has passed, the Lord has followed the prophetic pattern again, by calling, teaching and empowering a servant, and sending him to teach truth. The restoration continues, but it depends on first remembering what came through Joseph Smith. 

The Lord’s message is found in the book, Preserving the Restoration, published only days before this blood moon sign. I’ve read this book and studied its message extensively. It is true.

The book lays out the Gospel of Jesus Christ in purity, reminds us of what the Lord offered through Joseph Smith, and extends the invitation to begin the Lord’s work anew, according to the pattern received by Joseph.

At the beginning of the restoration, Moroni and Joseph Smith spent the night discussing scripture. Among the passages considered, we find the following:
In addition to these, he quoted the eleventh chapter of Isaiah, saying that it was about to be fulfilled. He quoted also the third chapter of Acts, twenty-second and twenty-third verses, precisely as they stand in our New Testament. He said that that prophet was Christ; but the day had not yet come when “they who would not hear his voice should be cut off from among the people,” but soon would come. (JSH 1:40)
Moroni therefore referenced not only the Lord setting His hand again the second time to gather His people (Isaiah 11, see also D&C 113), but also the prophecy that Christ’s voice would be heard again (Acts 3:22-23). Those who reject Christ’s voice would be “cut off” from among the people—a term reminiscent of Jacob 5 and pruning the vineyard.

Now that the Fulness of the Gentiles is upon us, Christ’s voice sounds again in our ears. The prophecies Moroni came to discuss are being fulfilled before our eyes, and yet we, like all humanity since the beginning, largely don’t have eyes to see or ears to hear. As in days of old, God’s marvelous work moves forward by small and simple means, and the world ignores it.

A New Dispensation

Eleven days before his death, in his final public discourse, Joseph Smith taught the following:
It is in the order of heavenly things that God should always send a new dispensation into the world when men have apostatized from the truth and lost the priesthood. (HC, 6:478–79)
A new dispensation is upon us. Please don’t fail to grasp the significance of that statement. A new dispensation. Now. God speaks again and His work continues.

Much remains to be accomplished by the Lord and his servants before His return, yet He has set it all in motion and it will not cease until it is completed. Some few will rise up and accomplish the work. The prophecies WILL be fulfilled. All of them. Zion will come and the Lord will return. 

The work will require prepared servants, filled with God’s spirit and power. This need is reflected in the next prophecy Moroni referenced in Joseph’s bedroom:
He also quoted the second chapter of Joel, from the twenty-eighth verse to the last. He also said that this was not yet fulfilled, but was soon to be. (JSH 1:41)
And here are the soon-to-be-fulfilled verses Moroni quoted:
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. (Joel 2:28-29)
These verses bring us right back to Aquarius the water bearer, and the testimony overhead. God is indeed pouring out His spirit, inviting all to receive what is now offered. I add my witness that He is, in fact, sending dreams and visions, even to the very least of us.

The remainder of the quoted verses also remind us of the signs overhead, and the work yet to be accomplished:
And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call. (Joel 2:30-32)
When the Lord sends a new dispensation into the world, He invites us to accept His word and renew our repentance by baptism. This was true in His mortal ministry, it was true when He visited the Nephites at Bountiful, it was true in Joseph Smith’s day, and it is true today. The way He has prescribed for us to renew our covenant with Him is through baptism, or rebaptism. This ordinance signifies to heaven our repentance and acceptance of His word to us today.

And so, in conformity with established pattern, God has proclaimed through His servant the invitation to baptism—not into any organization or group, but as a personal covenant with God. Those who accept God’s word will manifest it by water. Even if youve already been baptized, the invitation is renewed. A new dispensation requires a new covenant. 

This invitation, finally, brings us to the most important testimony of this final blood moon.

Fire and Water

When Christ visited the Nephites at Bountiful, the first item he taught was His doctrine. Said our Lord:
And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me. 
And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God. And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost. (3 Nephi 11:32-35)
And so we see the symbolism of water and fire—present in the signs overhead, including Vesta, whose symbol is fire, Pisces and Cetus, both representing water creatures, Neptune, named for the god of waters, and Aquarius, pouring out water and fire. 

Click to Enlarge
The earth was baptized by water at the time of Noah’s flood. It will be baptized by fire in a coming day. In like manner, each of us is invited to receive the baptism of water, then the Father’s outpouring of fire and the Holy Ghost. The fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy is not automatic, but requires us to rise up and seek the fiery outpouring of God’s spirit. As with every new dispensation, the covenant must be renewed.

Is it in You?

Neptune is the ruling planet of Pisces. Yet we find it located in Aquarius. Uranus is the ruling planet of Aquarius, yet we find it located in Pisces. Pisces is in Aquarius and Aquarius is in Pisces. Again, we’re pointed to Christ’s Doctrine:
And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one. (3 Nephi 11:27)
We are invited to be one with them, by honoring Christ’s invitation, following His doctrine, and receiving the Holy Ghost. Those who do so become one with the Father and the Son.

Born of Water

I’ve written previously about the Born of Water website established to help those seeking baptism find someone with valid priesthood to provide the ordinance. But here’s what I haven’t written:

I was one of those involved in building the site. The process languished for several months in the idea stage, encountered technical hurdles with implementation, and required skills beyond those available in the group. It likely would have continued to languish if it weren’t for the Lord intervening in specific ways. 

As the blood moon drew near, there was a growing sense of urgency that the site needed to be finished before the final sign. And so, with some effort and the Lord’s help, the site went live on September 26, the day before the blood moon. 

It was only much later, in studying the testimony overhead, that I came to see the significance of the symbols: Outpouring. Flood. Water. Fire. Invitation to the wedding feast. Even the site’s name, chosen months before, came suddenly into focus, as did the reason it needed to be ready before the blood moon sign. 

God’s testimony overhead was an invitation to all. Come and be born of water, so He can fill you with fire.

The Sign of the Dove

We come at last to the sign of Jonah, or sign of the dove, where we began. Recall the following from part 4 of this series:
The original sign of the dove was given when Christ obeyed the Father’s will and submitted to baptism. By this, He signified His obedience, showed His humility, and fulfilled all righteousness. The Father testified to the truth of the event by sending the sign of the dove. Said Joseph Smith: 
“The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a dove…The Holy Ghost cannot be transformed into a dove; but the sign of a dove was given to John to signify the truth of the deed, as the dove is an emblem or token of truth and innocence.” (TPJS, p. 276).  
If the sign of the dove represents the Holy Ghost testifying of truth, we ought to ask ourselves what truth heaven is proclaiming in our day. What does the super blood moon sign proclaim? What could be so important that the sign of the dove has appeared again in the East?
And now, at the end, we can answer that question. Here are the truths proclaimed:


Early on, the decision was made that the Born of Water website should have a logo identifying it as a reliable and bonafide source for authoritative baptism. Much prayer and thought by a committed group of people went into the logo, and the final result is rich with symbolism—the primary symbol being the sign of the dove (it’s seen flying upward.)

The logo design was completed months before I began studying this blood moon. As I discovered the blood moon’s connections with Jonah, the sign of the dove, and Christ’s invitation to baptism, I was thunderstruck to realize the sign in the logo, chosen and created months before, matched the sign overhead of the Lord’s invitation. I was not even willing to believe it when I saw it—and yet it is true. The testimony overhead bears witness even of the website where one may seek authoritative baptism. Only God could have done this. The people involved had no idea of the coming testimony overhead. But now you do.

Looking Beyond the Mark


Millions viewed this unique blood moon tetrad as some sort of sign. Many expected marvelous things to happen; some even expected the end of the world. Millions of dollars changed hands, as book sales, talk show appearances, and Youtube videos heralded God’s coming message in the sky. And the next day, everyone forgot and life went on. Most were looking for the wrong sign entirely.


Just as the babe born in Bethlehem was obscure, unheralded, and uncelebrated by nearly all, God’s amazing testimony overhead was nearly universally dismissed as just another astronomical curiosity. The day of the Lord comes, indeed, as a thief in the night.

And when the light shall begin to break forth, it shall be with them like unto a parable which I will show you—
Ye look and behold the fig trees, and ye see them with your eyes, and ye say when they begin to shoot forth, and their leaves are yet tender, that summer is now nigh at hand;
Even so it shall be in that day when they shall see all these things, then shall they know that the hour is nigh.
And it shall come to pass that he that feareth me shall be looking forth for the great day of the Lord to come, even for the signs of the coming of the Son of Man.
And they shall see signs and wonders, for they shall be shown forth in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath. (D&C 45:36-40)
Do you have eyes to see? Will you heed the Lord’s invitation while it is yet possible? 

The sign of the dove logo now appears on three trustworthy websites where you can take the steps the Lord has outlined: (each is a clickable link)



All are invited to come.

Will you accept the Lord’s invitation? 


Or are you waiting for a sign?


The sign has been given. Remember the Lords statement: “And there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. (Luke 11:29, Matt. 12:39, Matt. 16:4) 


Now is the time to act.


Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—

Yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.
—2 Nephi 31:13






Postscript: The day after I published this, a massive winter storm hit the East coast of the U.S., breaking snowfall records in major cities, and burying the nation’s capital, as well as the financial capital and most populous U. S. city under a crippling, two-foot snowfall. A storm surge also brought coastal flooding. At least 27 have died so far. This was the largest snowfall ever recorded in New York City and Washington DC.

The storm, which struck under a full moon, was named “Winter Storm Jonas”

As Ive said before, you just cant make this stuff up. Are you watching?


27 comments:

  1. Thank you for your post Adrian.
    I'd like to bare my testimony and that these baptisms are being excepted by the Lord. After being denied baptism by the LDS church three times, I was finally baptized under this new covenant. I needed to know if my baptism would indeed be,"respected at His return by those who will return with Him" as Denver said. I asked in prayer for confirmation that He accepted my baptism. Since I had spent five years in the LDS church being told that the only acceptable form of baptism is within the church, I needed to KNOW if the Lord accepted my baptism.

    I received my answer. And I DONT mean by a "warm and fuzzy feeling," by a personal revelation, or a dream. I LITERALLY received proof that my baptism has been accepted by the Lord.
    This is real, do not wait.

    -JVH

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    1. That's really wonderful to hear JVH. Thanks for sharing.

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    2. Do you mean "...ACCEPTED by the Lord"?

      Excepted would indicate some kind of exclusion.

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    3. Yes, Jim, forgive my error. I meant accepted.
      JVH

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  2. Adrian,
    Powerful testimony! Thank you. I too know of these things, for the Lord has borne witness to my soul they are true. Reading Denver's words has, from the very beginning of this new dispensation, filled my soul with joy. I am elated that so many websites have emerged over the past few years declaring the truth of these things. The Spirit bears witness that, as the Savior taught Nicodemus, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3, 5)
    Thank you for providing this opportunity to those still searching for re-baptism and seeking to "see" and "enter into" the Kingdom of God.
    James Russell Uhl

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  3. Where did I miss that we need re-baptism or that the baptism that we already have with the LDS church is invalid?

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    Replies
    1. The invitation is issued in lecture 10 at this link:
      http://denversnuffer.com/40-years-in-mormonism-lecture-series/

      For an interesting parallel to your question, read D&C Section 22 (and its heading).

      Baptism is the way we signify our acceptance of the Lord's word today and the continuing restoration of the gospel.

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  4. Thank you Adrian for the links.

    I guess my hang up is how come the baptism that I have wouldn't be sufficient?

    I know why the Nephites were rebaptized. They were under the law of justice and after Christ's resurrection needed to be baptized to be under the law of mercy.

    I know why Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and others were rebaptized. They were baptized under the instruction of John the Baptist for the remission of sins. They needed to be baptized to join the Church of Christ.

    If I was baptized into the LDS church under the Aaronic Priesthood, a priesthood that shouldn't be taken from the earth, why would I need another baptism?

    Help me to see what it is that you see that I am not.

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    1. The Lord has sent an authorized servant with the invitation to be re-baptized. The LDS church cast out that servant, and by so doing, lost keys, priesthood and the Lord's recognition. (I've written about these things elsewhere.) Those who want a valid baptism at this point cannot get it from the LDS church. Those who receive the word of the Lord's servant (and therefore receive Him) are required to be re-baptized.

      When the Lord makes a significant change or does something new, we show our acceptance by being baptized. This is foundational. Even when the Lord hasn't done something new, we can still opt to be re-baptized to renew our covenants, as was common in the early days of the LDS church.

      You state you "know" why the Nephites were re-baptized and that it had to do with the Law of Justice and Mercy. But you make claims that Jesus did not. I would submit the reason the Nephites were re-baptized is because the Lord asked them to. In fact, it was so important a matter that it was the first thing Jesus taught them when he came. He never mentioned the reasoning except that it is required for salvation and it shows our acceptance of Him.

      The Lord intends to restore much more that has been lost, including the fulness of the priesthood and Zion. The best way to show we will accept what will be offered in the future is to accept what He asks of us now. If we refuse to believe or accept what is before us, there will be no more offered.

      If the Nephites had pointed to their prior baptisms (done by priesthood authority, remember) and refused Christ’s new commission, they would have received nothing more from Him. But they obeyed, and we can read the results.

      Same goes for Alma at the waters of Mormon. Same goes for the Jews in the days of John the Baptist. Same goes for the believers in Joseph Smith’s day. Our dead works cannot save us. The LDS church is a sinking ship. Clinging to it for salvation brings not baptism, but drowning.

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    2. I also recommend you read this post:
      http://denversnuffer.com/2015/12/come-unto-christ/

      This baptism is literally designed to preserve those who receive it against the coming day of burning.

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    3. I've been re-baptized (8 months ago), have not received a baptism of fire, am struggling with sin and temptation more than ever and feel gawd-awful unworthy. My wife and children are no longer believers, but rather agnostic or atheist. I am essentially alone in the South West US with no community. It's all been a rather bitter pill if you ask me.

      What to do?

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    4. Hi SB,

      A couple of thoughts. First, it is often desperation that brings us to the point of crying to the Lord with the kind of humility and surrender required. This may be exactly the path the Lord needs you to pursue to receiving the baptism of fire. Don't give up. Christ's path climbs, and isn't easy.

      Second, I recommend you focus on the doctrine of Christ. Fill yourself with faith, light and truth. I believe you'll find your sins trouble you much less.

      Speaking from experience in both of the above. God bless you, brother.

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    5. Thanks for your encouragement.

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  5. Adrian,

    I just went through all 7 posts. Very insightful. It's something that I should've done sooner.

    Your sincerity has caused me to take another look.

    A lot of the same conclusions I've come to on my own or with the help of Watcher.

    I have to admit that I'm haven't given Denver a fair shot because of my reliance on Watcher's impression of him. Shame on me!

    It's something that's been coming back to my mind every couple of months or so. I'll then study, pray and fast only to get no answer.

    I've been studying, praying and fasting to know specifically if Denver is the Lord's servant as far as he, Denver, claims that he is.

    Here's something that I struggle with. Where does Denver get his authority?

    I'm not hat well versed with all of his works. From what I've discovered he's claimed to have had audience with the Savior. But hasn't claimed to have received specific priesthood keys or anointings. Or has he?

    Because as I read your invitation to baptized, it states "find someone with valid priesthood to provide the ordinance."

    Where does that valid priesthood come from?

    If Denver is relying on the priesthood received while in the LDS church, but claims that because they forced him out he's the sole one left with priesthood power; what does that really say about the priesthood that was bestowed upon him from said church?

    Anybody could organize a church and take from the scriptures certain passages and base their church upon that, but how can they take a living branch from a dead tree? How can they put in it the power and the authority to act in the name of the Lord?

    These are thoughts that I've looked for, maybe not deep or hard enough, but haven't been able to find an answer.

    Thanks again for addressing these questions.

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    1. Thanks for asking these.

      As for Denver's authority to teach what he does, he has stated that Christ has given him the words to speak and the commission to speak them. That's all the authority needed; which is to say, there is no need of any earthly authority to authorize one whom the Lord has sent.

      As for authority to baptize, that requires Aaronic priesthood ordination and then a bestowal of power from God. Alma at the waters of Mormon is an example. He had already been ordained a priest, but before he undertook to begin baptizing, he prayed and asked God to empower him to perform the ordinance. God did so, and Alma baptized. We should follow this pattern.

      As for LDS priesthood: Remember, the LDS Church does not own or control priesthood. John the Baptist restored the Aaronic priesthood before the church even existed. Priesthood ordination lines are not dependent on the Church, despite what the Church would have us believe.

      Denver is not organizing a church. In fact, Denver is not organizing anything at all. He is merely teaching truth and inviting all to accept and act on it. He controls nothing, claims no title or office, and stands at the head of no organization. So there's no "authority" required, other than Christ's words, as I mentioned above.

      I'm doing my best, but I really can't do justice to these topics in a comment. I highly recommend you listen to Denver's 10 lectures, or read Preserving the Restoration.

      Here's a ling to the 10 lectures:
      http://denversnuffer.com/40-years-in-mormonism-lecture-series/

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    2. Beautiful questions, Ahuizotl, questions that lie at the heart of salvation. Who speaks for God? Who is authorized to exercise his power in the cause of salvation? In every age that light and truth has been on the earth it has been challenging to find answers. There never has been an obvious path to salvation but what required faith and humility leading to repentance and personal revelation. Even the majority of folks at the time of John the Baptist, Jesus or Peter struggled to perceive what was being offered.

      Regardless of where our hearts lie, your experience with Watcher is a cautionary tale for all of us. No man can mediate our salvation. Not Watcher, not Denver Snuffer, not President Monson, not Warren Jeffs. Because he loves truth, Adrian would probably be the first to caution you against blindly taking his word for anything. The same goes for Denver. The same went for Joseph Smith. Those who know will never demand your loyalty, money or obedience.

      I’d concure with Adrian’s invitation to explore Denver’s 10-part talk. As I listened to each talk myself I spontaneously experienced a witness of the spirit that came unbidden. I taught Gospel Doctrine for several years and was impressed with the pattern of ancient prophets who ran off the rails in the pursuit of wealth, power and dominion. The spirit has also born witness to me that Denver is not one of those guys, which is exciting to me.

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  6. Excellent resources and inspiration Adrian, thank you.

    Although I myself do believe the One Mighty and Strong is going to be the catalyst in the work of building up of the daughter of Zion and the preparatory place in the land of first inheritance. I also believe that the Lord setting his hand the 2nd time is through Denver and his revelations that I was not privy to prior to my understanding of the Remnant of Lehi (Native Americans) but not just Denver, he has spoken to other servants, including a Native American of the seed of Lehi to set in order the House of Israel as the time of the Gentiles has ended in July 2013 and the Gentiles have sinned against His gospel and now the 1st shall be last and last shall be first. The first being the people of His 1st covenant, i.e. the seed of Lehi (various native American lineage).

    Thank you for your diligence in sharing truth you have found.

    - Andrew

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  7. Ahuizotl,

    Thanks for sharing your experience. I went through a similar struggle --praying and fasting a great deal, without getting an answer about Denver’s message. I finally did get an answer, here is how it happened:

    I realized that I would need to take social risks and conduct experiments that would take me far out of my comfort zone, in order to obtain knowledge.

    In order to do this, I made myself vulnerable to my extended family. I let them know I was investigating the matter with real intent, and asked for their help in the investigation process. I also posted my comments and questions about Denver’s message on various blogs, using my full name, rather than posting under the safety of anonymity.

    I think that these actions proved to the Lord that I was serious about getting to the bottom of the matter, and he was then bound to answer. For others, the Lord might require something different, but for me this kind of vulnerability was a necessary step.

    I haven’t seen God or angels, but I do have a conviction that Denver’s core message is accurate. That conviction didn’t come until after I risked my reputation and my social comfort in a whole-hearted effort to understand what the truth of the matter was.

    Asking with real intent is often a distasteful proposition, because it requires us to adjust our lives, during a trial period, and live according to the words or ideas we are testing, --to provisionally treat those words as being of divine origin. It is socially expensive to engage in these kind of experiments, and it is fairly common to be socially harmed (losing friends, family, job, reputation) in the process.

    As a theoretical concept, exercising faith is easy -- just obey the words you want to test, and see where it takes you. But in practice it is quite difficult because it costs something precious -- social credit and reputation. One has to risk looking like a fool in front of the whole world (2 Nephi 9:42-43) in order to test certain words or ideas with sincerity.

    Here are some steps that you might consider taking, in line with John 7:17 and Alma 32:

    --Make yourself vulnerable to your friends, church leaders, and family; let them know you are considering the possibility that Denver’s message is valid, ask for their help in your investigation.
    --Yield to Denver’s invitation and get rebaptized, as an experiment upon the word.
    --Start using your real name in blog posts.

    Where might you end up after engaging in these experiments? You would likely begin to discern with clarity whether the words are from Christ or not, because you will have tasted and experienced them for yourself, and will be in a position to accurately judge their source (Moroni 7:15). And if, after your most sincere and honest experimentation, the seed doesn’t germinate, doesn’t become delicious to you, doesn’t enlighten your mind, and doesn’t enlarge your soul, then you can rightly discard it.

    Based on your post in this thread, I think that your intent is around 90 to 95 percent. I think the 5 to 10 percent that you are missing is the “leap of faith” part of the equation.

    This might be a somewhat clichéd example, but when Indiana Jones is standing at the Lion’s head, and his father’s notebook says to step off the ledge, it seems really insane, it seems like a step into certain death. He goes for broke and takes the step. After that, the way across the chasm becomes obvious, but prior to that it was completely hidden from view. Even though he was right on top of the answer as he was peering over the edge, he couldn’t see the answer until he risked his life to test the words (cross ref Matthew 10:34-39).

    Hebrews 11 says that we can’t please God unless we are willing to push forward, and seek for him without reserve -- to take hold of whatever points to Christ, and to test those paths honestly, regardless of the risks, without holding back. I believe that is what God wants from us, and that it will eventually get us into his presence.

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  8. I'm almost done with lecture 3.

    There is truth in these. Nothing that already hasn't been pointed out by others from a doctrinal standpoint.

    However, the main difference is that I find myself being kinder. More patient and loving toward others.

    Baptism for me isn't a "test the waters" kind of thing. It's binding and permanent.

    While I feel good about the message I hope to finish all lectures and have an answer.

    I think what has been missing was I was asking just to ask and expecting the Lord to answer without fully having studied the issue or lectures out in my mind.

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  9. Adrian-

    I believe this along with most of your posts are sincere. I for one, believe you are misled and are interpreting many things incorrectly and have the timing off on many other things.

    For example, you said that the church was rejected because they rejected "the servant" whom you say is Denver Snuffer. However you also said the church lost the Priesthood in 1844 quoting D&C 124:27, (even though this revelation was given in 1841) however I believe you're misinterpreting this scripture also. If you continue to read in that section, you'll see that - after what you interpret as having lost the priesthood (again),- that the Lord continues to encourage them to continue with baptisms for the dead and to build the temple. The rest of the section contradicts the assertion you're making.

    You're implying that the current church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is not the Lord's church nor fulfilling any of His prophesied purposes and hasn't been since 1844. However, a reading of 1 Nephi tells a different story when the angel of the Lord showed Nephi in vision, our day - the Church of the Lamb who's numbers were few among all the nations of the Gentiles, and that all of the nations of the Gentiles were gathered together to fight against the Lamb and his church. I've read your interpretation that a "church" is just a group, but surely you can't imply this here?

    Further, the Times of the Gentiles are not yet fulfilled. I'm assuming you're alluding to Denver Snuffer and his books/message as equating to the "light" breaking forth in the darkness? (the fulness of the gospel)

    I'm also assuming you believe Denver Snuffer again being equivalent to the Lord making bare his arm in the eyes of all the nations? If so, I'm curious to how you draw this conclusion and what you see happening in the near future?

    99% of the members of the LDS church have no clue who he is, yet alone the rest of the world. Is this considered rejection?

    Also, I don't believe you're interpreting 3 Nephi 16:10-11 correctly. I believe your take is entirely opposite of it's meaning.







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    1. Hi Remnant,

      To a great degree, you're both misinterpreting and making assumptions about what I'm saying. (You said it yourself, about the assuming.)

      Some of the contradictions you set up above are the result of pushing assumptions too far.

      I don't think it's profitable for me to attempt to address your assertions point by point. Suffice to say, I do not believe most of the things you claim I do.

      Delete
  10. Adrian-

    Your are right, I may have drawn conclusions assuming some things! I apologize for that! I hope you'll continue to entertain my thoughts if only to help you refine your thinking, but to help me clarify your stance.

    You stated that the "The Times of the Gentiles have ended". I'll ask the question instead of making assumptions. How do you draw this conclusion, other than the push of immigrants from the various countries to the Gentile nations?

    Speaking of the scattered remnant, D&C 45:25 mentions "But they shall be gathered again: but they shall remain until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

    Am I correct in assuming this is one scripture where you're applying this idea that the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled? If so, am I correctly assuming that this increase in immigration is the qualifier, that the scattered remnant have returned? And in other words, the "gathering" you're inferring here is merely physical and not spiritual? How is bringing in hundreds of thousands into Gentile lands fulfilling the Abrahamic covenant? Is there a spiritual aspect to the gathering? How do you see this unfolding?

    D&C 45 also states "when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light will break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel:"

    Do you consider this the coming forth of the Book of Mormon & restoration or some other event?

    Also, I see that you consider the "coming flood" (or according to you "current" flood" being immigration. Is this correct? Have you considered any other type of "flood"?

    You also stated, that "A New Dispensation is Upon Us". I hope you'll help me understand why you think this is? Do you agree or disagree with this statement by Elder Bednar? "A gospel dispensation is a period of time in which the necessary priesthood authority, ordinances, and doctrinal knowledge are found on the earth to implement the Father’s plan of salvation for His children. Essential to the establishment of a dispensation is an authorized servant of God, a dispensation head, who holds and exercises the authority and keys of the holy priesthood." Can you clarify, who is this Priesthood leader? Does Denver Snuffer claim to be this person? My understanding is that he's not said this. Are you declaring this to be Denver Snuffer? If not, who is it? What ordinances are being done, and where?

    Joseph Smith stated, as recorded in TPJS 228: "You will receive instructions through the order of the Priesthood which God has established through the medium of those appointed to lead, guide and direct the affairs of the Church in this last dispensation: and I now turn the key in your behalf in the name of the Lord, and this Society shall rejoice, and knowledge and intelligence shall flow down from this time henceforth, this is the beginning of better days to the poor and need, who shall be made to rejoice and pour forth blessings on your heads."

    In the above quote, he states two important things. 1) that this is the last dispensation (dispensation of the fulness of times) and 2) that instructions will come through the order of the Priesthood by those that are appointed to direc the affairs of the church. What is your response to this?





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    1. You ask many questions, Remnant. Please forgive me if I simply don't have time to get to all of them or answer in detail. I'm really not interested debating point by point. And, as you state two paragraphs after you say you won't make assumptions, you're still making assumptions.

      Well, be that as it may, I have a number of reasons for asserting the times of the gentiles are fulfilled, including Isaiah 11, Jacob 5-6, 2 Nephi 25 and 29, D&C 45, 1 Nephi 15, and others I won't go into here.

      The flood of immigrants is one of the signs the prophecies are being fulfilled. There are other signs as well, and things are just getting started.

      Star Wars is the last movie I saw. It doesn't mean I'll never see another. Every dispensation is the "last" dispensation, until another comes.

      Another has come through Denver Snuffer. God has sent an authorized servant bearing His word. Before we make too much of priesthood, we need to get rid of all the false definitions of that word we've come to accept. (Which is very hard for LDS people to do, by the way.)

      Changing definitions is one of Satan's favorite tactics because it allows us to keep using the same vocabulary as Joseph, but with completely different meanings and understanding.

      Sorry, I simply can't answer every question, or I'll never have time to write anything more.

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  11. Adrian-

    It appears from multiple places on your blog, that you're claiming Denver Snuffer is a key "servant" mentioned in scripture, yet on his own blog he's denying he plays any significant role. Why do think that is?

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    1. The only role he claims is teacher. He has publicly, repeatedly stated that claiming titles is foolish. When the work is done, you can claim the title. Trying to claim a title before that is nothing more than vanity.

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  12. Adrian-

    thanks for the replies! It's nice to see that you'll allows posts that disagree or contradict what you believe!

    You'll notice in my previous post, I asked if my "assumptions" were correct, not merely just stating that I correctly assumed your position. I'm asking the questions to help you clarify your position because there are many areas that are not clear. However, your reply does help clear up some of those.

    You wrote: "Star Wars is the last movie I saw. It doesn't mean I'll never see another. Every dispensation is the "last" dispensation, until another comes."

    The quote by Joseph Smith was "You will receive instructions through the order of the Priesthood which God has established through the medium of those appointed to lead, guide and direct the affairs of the Church IN THIS LAST dispensation" speaking of the dispensation in which he lived.

    It's a far stretch to imply that he's referring to the dispensation in which he's living as the previous dispensation. You're basically saying he said this: "in the future, you will receive instruction from those who lead the church in this dispensation until the next dispensation."

    further in D&C 27:13, the Lord states to Joseph Smith, "unto whom I have committed the keys of my kingdom and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times; and for the fulness of times, in the which I will gather in one all things, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth;"

    Also, in an epistle to the church, Joseph Smith wrote: "for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time. And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the foundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto babes and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times." (D&C 128:18)

    After reading the above quotes of Joseph Smith, I believe we are living in that same dispensation!

    A key sign that we have that the times of the gentiles is fulfilled is that the gospel would then go to the lost tribes. This is not occurring (yet). D&C 45 states that "they shall be gathered again; but they shall remain until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

    Migration that is a result of fulfilling the covenant will be a spiritual gathering first, then a physical gathering, second. In other words, obedience first, then the blessing. Conversion first, then migration.

    "But behold, thus saith the Lord God: When the day cometh that they shall believe in me, that I am Christ, then have I covenanted with their fathers that they shall be restored in the flesh, upon the earth, unto the lands of their inheritance." (2 Nephi 10:7)

    We're really talking about two covenants in one. 1) is covenants of the gospel (all of the blessings, particularly eternal blessings that pertain to the blessings of living the gospel) and that are only available in the covenant and 2) the promise/covenant that God made to Abraham and Jacob that he would remember their seed and bring them back into the gospel covenant. Lands of promise are included but only after they've been converted back into the gospel covenant.

    I believe your timing is off!

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    1. Hi Remnant,

      You misunderstood my meaning about the "last movie I saw" comparison. But I'll let it stand. You've made your points here for readers to evaluate, and I don't care to argue them point by point.

      I think it bears repeating that misunderstood definitions of words throw us all off the trail of truth. Words like covenant, priesthood, dispensation, house, Israel, eternal, times, fulness, church and gospel have taken on completely new and inaccurate usage in the last 170 years. Until we recover the meanings the Lord intends, we cannot understand his word and we simply talk past one another.

      I hope to one day have time to blog about some of these words and their meanings.

      God bless you, Remnant, in your quest for truth.

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