The earth groans under the wickedness of mankind upon her face, and she longs for peace to come. She withholds the abundance of her bounty because of the offenses of men against me, against one another, and against her. But if righteousness returns and my people prove by their actions, words, and thoughts to yield to my spirit and hearken to my commandments, then will the earth rejoice, for the feet of those who cry peace upon her mountains are beautiful indeed, and I, the Lord, will bring again Zion, and the earth will rejoice.
—T&C 157:63
Now that we’ve done some foundational work by discussing some of the meanings and levels of peoplehood, and likewise three levels of consensus in decision making, I’d like to offer some practical thoughts about how we can apply these precepts in our group interactions.
In offering these thoughts, I want to start with a couple of important points. First, many of the ideas expressed in this series did not originate with me. These are the results of discussions among several thoughtful Covenant Christians. Though I wholeheartedly agree with what is written here, I can’t take credit.
Second, the following ideas and advice are meant to be just that. If something here seems helpful, please pursue it. If not, please feel free to reject it. Ultimately, you must decide the truth of these things for yourself with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
And finally, in discussing various situations we have and do face as a covenant body, I hope to focus on events and decisions, rather than any particular people. We are all on this journey together and all equally in need of our Lord’s grace. Therefore, please use these ideas to focus on applying precepts, rather than pointing fingers.
OK, with that groundwork in place, we can proceed to discuss some practical applications.
The Voice of the People
It should be clear from the prior post in this series that ALL forms of consensus among the covenant body begin with the voice of the people—or in other words, with a vote. The outcome of the vote determines whether we have a simple majority, mutual agreement, or unanimity (see part 2 of this series). Since this is the common starting point, and since the Lord has expressed confidence that the voice of the people will typically choose righteousness (Mosiah 13:6 RE/CC), we need not fear holding a vote.
I’ll admit this is a departure from my prior understanding and feelings. I presumed there were certain items or questions upon which it was inappropriate to even consider holding a vote. But my understanding has grown and my opinion has changed. If we are the Lord’s, we need not fear our own common consent.
Naturally, it’s imperative that before any vote is taken, all sides be given ample opportunity to present their ideas to the covenant body, and that time and space be given for discussion, debate, and full consideration. This process is to be conducted respectfully and need NOT include fear on anyone’s part. Fear is the root that leads to contention and disputation. But perfect love casts out fear, and faith is the opposite of fear. These two great principles should give us the strength and understanding to discuss ideas without fear.
But those who have not made this sacrifice to God do not know that the course which they pursue is well-pleasing in his sight, for whatever may be their belief or their opinion, it is a matter of doubt and uncertainty in their mind, and where doubt and uncertainty is, there faith is not, nor can it be. For doubt and faith do not exist in the same person at the same time. So that persons whose minds are under doubts and fears cannot have unshaken confidence, and where unshaken confidence is not, there faith is weak, and where faith is weak, the persons will not be able to contend against all the opposition, tribulations, and afflictions which they will have to encounter in order to be heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ Jesus, and they will grow weary in their minds, and the adversary will have power over them and destroy them.
—LoF 6:12
At our most recent Women’s Conference, a group of women who formed a unanimous council to remove a man’s priesthood certificate stood accused of misconduct in their procedures and were placed on trial before the covenant body, with the outcome to be settled by the voice of the women at the conference. In the lead-up to the conference, fear and accusations caused contention, disputation, and much harm on all sides of the issue. In the end. the women’s council was overwhelmingly vindicated, and the issue stands settled. What remains is the lesson that we need not fear. As noted the next day in the General Conference meeting:
Second, we have just been through another opportunity to deal with a controversy that divided us. It has required opposing views to be debated. That may not have been as cheerfully conducted as we might have wanted it to have been. But it was another chance to work through a problem. We needed that.
So, now, we should look back on how we did individually in the discussions. Many of us have approached the task of deciding a controversy with fear, and not with cheerful confidence. I am confident that the voice of the people will almost always choose the right outcome. I approach our disagreements with the confidence that, in the end, we will achieve the right outcome. Be encouraged to lay aside your fears, trust the body of believers, and do not lose faith because we have a matter to resolve.
—Denver Snuffer, “God’s Covenant People,” p. 33
What encouraging counsel our Lord has given us that we can cheerfully view another’s dispute with us as an opportunity to work through a problem. If we as a people could learn to approach disagreement with cheerful confidence instead of fear, trust the body of believers, and not lose faith because we have a matter to resolve, then this would be a great step forward in learning to disagree respectfully and become more united as a people.
Listening vs. Persuasion
Throughout the process of presenting and discussing the various sides to any issue, we should be cautious to avoid the trap of accusing others of not listening. If someone remains unpersuaded by an argument, it does not mean they have not listened to the argument. Our brains are programmed with the default position that we are each generally right in our own views, and therefore we tend to naturally assume that someone who disagrees simply doesn’t understand, and therefore has not listened to us. Because if they would just listen, they would understand and would immediately agree with us, right?
Let’s have the self-awareness and doctrinal grounding to realize that many of our own ideas and views do in fact miss the mark, and that it’s possible for someone else to fully understand our viewpoint and yet disagree. At such a juncture, accusations of failure to listen are unhelpful and only broaden divides and entrench disputes.
Most alarming (or absurd) is those who accuse God of getting things wrong because He fails to agree with them. Those who hold such ideas, and especially those who spread them, tend to find themselves rapidly pruned from the tree of life.
The Gift of Disagreement
It’s also vital that we recognize this principle in our process: When a question has been thoroughly presented and discussed, and a vote has been taken, we can safely assume that not all will agree with the voice of the people. Some will disagree, perhaps strongly, and feel their opinion should have prevailed. And now we get the the heart of the matter because this sacred moment of disagreement presents a golden opportunity.
Achieving Mutual Agreement
At this precise point—when the voice of the people has spoken, but disagreements remain—comes the priceless opportunity to elevate the entire covenant body, please the Lord, and demonstrate having learned by precept the lesson of mutual agreement. This is literally the moment it all hangs in the balance.
You see, it all comes down to those who did not prevail in the voting. They undoubtedly still disagree, and at this critical point, they have a very important choice to make. They can double down, dispute, argue, accuse and contend, or they can lay down their disputes and unite with the will of the Lord’s people. This doesn’t mean they agree with the decision that has been made; rather it simply means that, even though they disagree, they affirmatively choose to NOT dispute. Just as the Savior did.
…the Lord could have disputed every day of His life with someone. He deliberately chose to not contend. He was not an argumentative personality.
—T&C 174:2
It really is that simple. And yet, it’s also beautiful, and perhaps even heroic to make the conscious choice to value unity with the Lord’s people more then one’s own opinion. It is a public declaration of allegiance with the people the Lord has called his own, rather than a public declaration of disputation against them, or even departure from them. It is, at its core, a sacrifice of one’s own will for the good of the group, and it echoes in some small degree the Savior’s sacrifice of his own will in the Garden of Gethsemane.
An Example
I’ve heard from some who voted against all proposed additions to scripture at the last conference. Their reasons were solid, well reasoned, and heartfelt. I do not fault them for their vote, though I may disagree. They voted their conscience and I respect them for it.
But here’s the thing: Once the vote was taken, they considered the matter closed. They chose then and there that, having made their voices heard by voting, and having not prevailed, they would end their objections and not dispute. They would unite with the voice of the Lord’s people and follow the path chosen by the body, trusting the Lord to provide whatever course correction may be needed.
In doing so, they even tacitly admitted they *might* have been wrong in their views. I’m not saying they were wrong, mind you, I’m simply pointing out that when someone lays down their own will, they tacitly acknowledge that a different course may be valid. For some, even such a tacit implication is painful. Perhaps the pain can be mitigated by the knowledge that as fallen mortals, we are all inevitably wrong on various items at various times. We need not fear nor feel ashamed; this is why we’re here having this mortal experience. We learn from our errors.
Those who disagreed with the scripture vote outcome could have disputed; they could have recruited; they could have whipped up anger, fear and accusation, doing a great deal of damage in the process. But they simply chose not to.
I have immense respect for their decision. It has brought us peace and unity, even while respectful disagreements remain. It has taught us the priceless lesson that we can be of one heart even if we are not yet of one mind. I believe it caused a glimmer of hope to shine in the halls of heaven, among those who are praying we will learn these lessons by precept, rather than by sad experience.
Now consider this serious question: Is this the key to mutual agreement? Or to be more specific, can it be said that we accepted the proposed additions to the scriptures, not merely by common consent—as evidenced by the vote—but actually by mutual agreement—as evidenced by the decision to NOT dispute?
The answer is, we don’t know for sure. Among those who voted no, there was no allowance made for them to declare their intent as to disputation. Therefore we really don’t know if we have all chosen to not dispute.
So what would happen if we made room for such a declaration?
Here’s an example of how that might look, using the verbal voting conducted in the conference meeting last month as an example. For each measure proposed, there were “Yes” and “No” votes verbally spoken (or even shouted.) Here’s an example of how that was conducted, quoting the actual wording:
Regarding section 178, the Revelation given to Denver on 25 February, 2022 regarding questions of why some are healed and others are not.
Those in favor of adding section 178 please say Yes.
[Many responses of Yes]
Those opposed to adding section 178 please say No.
[Far fewer responses of No]
And it ended there, with the voice of the people, remaining disagreement, and unknown disputation status.
But what would have happened if the very next question were something like this:
The voice of the people having approved the section to be added, we now ask those opposed whether they will choose to unite with the voice of the people, even if disagreements remain, or will choose to dispute this vote.
Those who voted no, but who choose to NOT dispute the outcome, please stand and be counted. Thank you. You may be seated.
Those who voted no, and intend TO dispute the outcome, please stand and be counted. Thank you. You may be seated.
Now, if such a question were asked, and all who voted “No” nevertheless chose to NOT dispute, we would, in very fact, have achieved Mutual Agreement by the Lord’s definition.
Such a procedure would elevate the “Level 1” voice of the people outcome to a “Level 2” mutual agreement outcome. What would such an outcome demonstrate about us? About those who are willing to make an affirmative, public choice to NOT dispute, even when they have a valid disagreement? About our progress in internalizing our Lord’s teachings by precept? About our ability to disagree respectfully?
Of course, those who commit to NOT dispute need to be as good as their word. But without the opportunity to make such a commitment, we lack even the foundation upon which to build mutual agreement. An affirmative commitment to not dispute is the key to a higher, better, and more glorious form of unity. It is a higher path and a smoother road.
I should pause here to acknowledge the process proposed above can and should be improved. How do we remove peer pressure and public stigma from the equation? How do we cast out fear? These are important questions that ought to be discussed, but I hope the point remains: there can be a path to turn a majority vote into mutual agreement if we are willing to pursue it.
Applying New Understanding to Past Failures
Regarding these concepts, we heard the following in our most recent conference:
God gave us an opportunity with the Guide and Standard. It was to provide an experience for a group of people with differences and disagreements to learn and increase their ability to respectfully disagree while still coming to a mutual concession.
—Denver Snuffer, “God’s Covenant People,” p. 31-2
And:
When I learned that rancor and hard feelings still linger over the Guide and Standard, it surprised me.
—ibid, p. 2
I won’t rehash the lengthy and difficult Guide and Standard effort that took place in 2017 and 2018. Suffice it to say many approaches were offered, debated, attempted, and abandoned. Thousands of hours were consumed in discussion and persuasion as well as argument and disputation. Eventually, through a process of random lots, a committee was assembled and a statement written. The voice of the people overwhelmingly accepted the statement in September, 2018.
Since that time, disputation and contention have continued, evidently driven by the rancor and hard feelings mentioned above. Numerous attempts have been made to address the issues involved and bring an end to the contention, including conferences, fellowship meetings, fasts, prayers, group prayers, attempts at persuasion, listening, lengthy discussion, private meetings, and public forum discussions. Unfortunately, argument, strife, harsh words, and unchecked emotion have remained in a significant enough degree to prevent success and invoke the Lord’s reprimand.
Through it all, even though the Lord accepted the statement approved by the voice of the people and allowed it to be added to our scriptures, the project remains a failure.
Rather than mutually agreeing, we surrendered the fight without achieving a unanimous statement that satisfied everyone. In that, it was a failure. We are failing again. We are so fixated on achieving a result that we fail to realize that the results do not matter; only the process matters. Results should be a byproduct of the process.
—ibid, p. 2
I want to say it as clearly and directly as possible:
We. Can. Fix. This.
Throughout the last seven years, many have proposed numerous ways to “revisit” the Guide and Standard project, with proposals ranging from simply praying together, to scrapping the whole thing and starting over. Many attempts at reconciliation have been tried. All have failed.
Seven years later, the Lord still waits for us to reach mutual agreement. And here’s the thing: We can get there anytime we choose! We have continued our disputes about the project, rather than considering the process of reaching mutual agreement. And here’s the process:
Those who still feel to dispute against the voice of the people, but also (rightly) consider themselves part of the Lord’s people have a choice to make. They can choose to continue their disputations, or they can choose to NOT dispute, and unite with the voice of the people. This DOESN’T mean they have to agree with the statement, the principles it contains, or the process used to create it. Surely things could have been done differently, and perhaps better. But now that the voice of the people has spoken, what’s done is done. We can choose to be united.
What Ought We to have Learned?
In the parable of the master’s house (T&C 176) the Lord begins and ends with two questions: “What have you learned? What ought you to have learned?” The intervening parable presents three groups of people who reacted in different ways to the Master’s command to build a house. In the end, two groups united and accomplished the work, while a third insisted instead on carrying burdens of stone even after the work was finished and accepted.
Finally, the third group was persuaded to lay down their burdens and the stone formed an improved roadway to the Lord’s house. The Master accepted both the house and the road.
I submit that this is one lesson that we ought to learn: The work is done but the path is still broken. Laying down the burden of disputation and reaching mutual agreement provides an improvement over the old path and initiates a reliable road for us all to reach the master’s house. Seven years of disputation has cost us much, and may yet cost us everything if it is not laid down. But if it is laid down and we all learn from this example, this sad experience will have served a positive purpose.
Everything can change immediately:
Now, my friends, you’ve received many witnesses, because the holy scriptures testify of these things, and therefore I want you to respond and produce evidence of your repentance. 31I would like you to respond and not harden your hearts any longer. Because now is the time and the day of your salvation. And therefore if you repent and don’t harden your hearts, the great plan of redemption will immediately take effect for you.
—Alma 16:37 CC
Can we leave the disputes in the past? Can we unite as a people? Can we drop the rancor and hard feelings that have plagued this project for over seven years and simply choose mutual agreement?
I believe we can.
But it’s not up to me.
Meetings to “revisit” the guide and standard yet remain proposed. Some say the cure for all the contention and disputation is to be nicer about things. To get together and argue some more, but smile while doing so, and be sure to call each other “brother” and “sister” while airing grievances about the past and revisiting hard feelings that have not changed in seven years of attempts.
But I propose a different approach.
What if a gathering convenes to include all those who have felt to dispute, as well as those who have not, and it simply consists of an acknowledgment of failure, the desire to do better, the application of precept rather than sad experience, and the commitment to end the dispute? What if we finally choose to be ashamed of our poor behavior and ongoing disputations? What if all kneel together and declare before God they would rather be of one heart than be vindicated? That they would rather unite with His people than be pruned to save the tree? What if all demonstrate before heaven and one another their firm commitment that the accusations, contentions and disputations over this matter permanently end NOW? What if the prayer concludes with supplication for the Lord to accept, after seven years, this, our humble repentance and mutual agreement—showing before God and angels that we can, in the end, learn by precept, and that we finally understand?
Might this please our Lord? Might this remove the stumbling block that has bloodied our shins and torn our palms for seven years? Might this process provide a smooth road for future journeys together in our Lord’s service? Might it even make us “…able to accomplish other works that [He] will require at [our] hands”? (T&C 157:55) Might it convince the Lord to “spare it a little longer” in teaching us by precept rather than raining down sad experience upon us?
I think this idea deserves our consideration. Our Lord asked us for Level 2 consensus; He asked us to reach mutual agreement. We have not gotten there in seven years, but that can all change in an instant, and we can show ourselves to be worthy of His merciful moniker, “Covenant Christians.”
It is time.
For the sake of the promises to the fathers will I labor with you as a people, and not because of you, for you have not yet become what you must be to live together in peace. If you will hearken to my words, I will make you my people and my words will give you peace. Even a single soul who stirs up the hearts of others to anger can destroy the peace of all my people. Each of you must equally walk truly in my path, not only to profess, but to do as you profess.
—T&C 157:19
Thx Adrian. As someone who...
ReplyDelete1. Didn't even know about nor accepted the covenant until 2022
2. Was born with a disposition to be agreeable and seek harmony over getting my way
3. Wants nothing more than to be called to physically gather to build Zion
...none of this is an issue to me. Is that a wrong way to approach? I honestly don't care, and more than happy to follow whatever is the voice of the people, and not dispute. Will not having a strong opinion one way or another keep me out of zion?
I wish my wife wouldn't get so triggered about my having "joined" this group, but I can't think of anything that would take priority in my life over doing WHATEVER it takes to hopefully be called to build Zion with you all, despite all the so many eccentricities y'all seem to have. Up to now, i feel the Lord has instructed me to prioritize harmony in my marriage and family over getting my way in how we seek for and follow the Lord as a family. And until I hear otherwise, I will continue with this agreeable-ness.
I tire of waiting, and pray my family will awake and arise, and pray that all of us Covenant Christians can be united as one!
If we as a people do fail with this opportunity He has given us, I wonder how and if we will be made aware that we indeed failed...
May God bless you and your family!
Adrian:
ReplyDeleteI love the concepts taught in your 3-part post. I also love the two proposals in your third post:
1st- a way to turn a majority vote into mutual agreement with a subsequent vote after we know the voice of the people. That is what was done in Layton six months after the Lots document was voted the preference of the people. It failed then but I expect we have learned a good deal then about how to please God.
2nd- a gathering to include all those who have felt to dispute, as well as those who have not, and acknowledge our failure and repent.
You mention that the process proposed can and should be improved and asked “How do we remove peer pressure and public stigma from the equation?”
Here’s is a two-part partial answer.
1-Public Consultation Period- largely absent from your proposal is a period of public discussion before a vote is taken. One of the criticisms of the vote in Phoenix was by a man of the front row who felt that he was entirely blindsided by the vote. He hadn’t heard about it and hadn’t had time to read the proposed documents we were voting on. I heard the same arguments from others that there simply wasn’t enough time to properly prepare for a vote. Rob Adolpho has expressed to me that timelines should not be placed on such things. That mutual agreement should be achieved by discussion, listening and persuading no matter how long it takes, making voting perfunctory or unnecessary. (Hope I characterized Rob’s point of view correctly). I probably disagree with Rob somewhat on voting but absolutely agree that there should be a substantial period of time where the pros and cons can be debated and ideas vetted before a vote is taken.
2- A Forum for Covenant Matters-To avoid the complaint of the man in the front row we need a forum for discussion. I went up to the man after the conference and asked him what discussion groups, email chains and fellowships he belonged to. “None” was his answer. “Well no wonder you haven’t heard about it”, I replied. I don’t have “the” answer for how to get information out but I’ll suggest one possibility. Every fellowship could be invited to give an email where any public matter could be announced and where they could go for more information about it. As a surrogate for LDS.org we have used popular websites, email chains, the “Events” section of restorationarchives, John Webster’s site and discussion groups. We need one site that no interested Covenant Christian will be blindsided by important public matters.
3-The other improvement I suggest to your proposal is the obligation each of us have to “reason, observe, engage, submit, ask, share, listen, pray, fast” and “work out our conflicts” which Denver reminded us of in his last talk. He also said, “many have openly stated their unwillingness to engage in the work and lack the desire to understand one another”. We need to take seriously our obligation to “ first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift”.
We need a period of time before any movement-wide vote to engage in the work of trying to understand all sides of the issue being voted on. I now believe I could have done a great deal more to achieve mutual agreement in the statement of principles if I and others would have engaged each other in an effort to understand others points at of view before carrying out a vote. For that I ask forgiveness and express a public desire to do better now and in the future.
Look forward to the proposed gathering no matter who puts it together. I will try to be there joining with you and all others desiring to acknowledge failure & repent.
McKay
Love your thoughts, McKay! I second them. :-)
DeleteAlly Bishop
This is really well reasoned and a positive step forward. I pray everyone will give your comments serious consideration.
ReplyDeleteI misrepresented Rob above. I apologize publically.
ReplyDeleteIf a vote is called for and some folks feel they have not been heard, their points of view ignored, if they feel no one has tried to understand them, no process will overcome their perception of exclusion. But if we love one another to listen, understand & dialogue until all feel included and understood then I suspect this method of achieving mutual agreement will succeed.
Hi McKay,
DeleteI appreciate your thoughts here. It seems to me that this is a tough issue with which to wrestle. Since every individual gets to set their own threshold regarding when they “feel they have been heard” it’s possible for the process to continue indefinitely because a person or persons claim they have not yet been “heard.” You are correct in that “no process will overcome their perception of exclusion.”
This is why I wrote: “Throughout the process of presenting and discussing the various sides to any issue, we should be cautious to avoid the trap of accusing others of not listening. If someone remains unpersuaded by an argument, it does not mean they have not listened to the argument. Our brains are programmed with the default position that we are each generally right in our own views, and therefore we tend to naturally assume that someone who disagrees simply doesn’t understand, and therefore has not listened to us. Because if they would just listen, they would understand and would immediately agree with us, right?
“Let’s have the self-awareness and doctrinal grounding to realize that many of our own ideas and views do in fact miss the mark, and that it’s possible for someone else to fully understand our viewpoint and yet disagree. At such a juncture, accusations of failure to listen are unhelpful and only broaden divides and entrench disputes.”
I do agree we must “love one another to listen, understand & dialogue” but it may not be possible to do so to the point that “all feel included and understood” if there are some who absolutely will not admit being heard or understood until and unless their opinion prevails. Such can simply claim victimhood as leverage against the entire body, then cite their victimhood and the body’s misbehavior as justification for continuing to dispute. In such a case, I can see only two possible ways to reach peace and mutual agreement.
The entire body acquiesces to the ideas of the one who claims not to be heard; or
The one who claims not to be heard voluntarily lays down their dispute and chooses to be united rather than to be right.
Otherwise, it remains a standoff. For years. And we remain unable to accomplish what the Lord very much wants us to do.
As I said, it’s a tough problem with which to wrestle. I want to add that In what I’ve written here, I am speaking of general principles and patterns in group dynamics and decision making. I am NOT singling out any individual or individuals. These are principles for us ALL to consider.
I believe that individuals may choose not to dispute an issue because they have genuinely reached a mutual agreement, not because they are being controlled or are controlling themselves. I also don't think that if someone disagrees, they should simply remain silent to align with the majority.
ReplyDeleteThe Blackfoot people use the term "niitsitapi," which means "real people." To me, this signifies that they act according to their hearts and remain authentic. They do not pretend, disassociate, self-discipline, or disconnect; they are simply real. You never have to wonder who they are because they show you. I don’t believe the Lord is asking us to "fake it till we make it." I think we can be real and make it, which may be very uncomfortable at times and will take a lot of work we are not accustomed to.
Whose responsibility is it to ensure that everyone agrees not to dispute? I don't believe that responsibility lies solely with the person who disagrees; it should be shared by all parties involved because if you were able to listen, understand and truly consider you could come to mutual agreement. But in order for this to happen both parties need to work together.
I think people choose not to dispute because they truly agree with one another. It’s easy to blame those who don’t conform to the majority, labeling them as disputers and dismissing them simply because the majority has agreed on that label. I remember a professor in graduate school posing a question: If you saw a blue truck parked, and the majority of people insist it is a red truck, is it a red truck? My answer was no; it is a blue truck. Just because the majority sees something a certain way doesn’t always mean they are correct. At one point, we were all in the minority within the LDS Church; did the majority have it right back then? Or does that not apply to us because we agreed to the covenant?
It’s easy to point out the faults in others while struggling to recognize our own shortcomings. The reason we study history is to avoid repeating the same mistakes—at least, that’s the explanation I was given when I complained about studying it. I have come to realize that this is true. I believe that’s why we are given the scriptures: to learn from the past and inform our present actions. I enjoy learning about the early saints because I can glean insights from both their successes and failures. The Lord provided us with a parable for a reason; it would be wise to follow His guidance and learn from our experiences. We should study our short history to identify our successes, failures, and patterns in order to prevent ourselves from repeating past mistakes.
In my observation, many of the patterns that emerged during the Statement of Principles (SOP) also occurred during the Women’s Conference, indicating a repetition of those same patterns. How will we know if we are repeating these patterns if we don't recognize what they are? I think we ought to discover the patterns and determine whether they are productive patterns or are they patterns that lead to frustration, chaos and damnation.
Q Adolpho
(Thank you, Mckay, for acknowledging that you misrepresented Rob. I agree that your representation of him was incorrect)
Hi Q,
DeleteThank you for sharing your thoughts. I have a different point of view on several of the items you’ve shared here, so I’d like to respectfully present my ideas for consideration.
First, the notion that we ought not “pretend, disassociate, self-discipline or disconnect” in favor of being “real.” That we ought not “fake it til we make it.”
I believe “Men and women, in their natural state, are out of harmony with God and have been since the Fall of Adam.” (Mosiah 1:16) Much, perhaps all of what we came here to do is learn to control, discipline and overcome our “natural” impulses and desires. Civilization and godliness depend upon all agreeing to live and behave by a certain set of expectations, regardless of whether we want to. I can’t take a baseball bat to the guy who stole my credit card info and bought stuff; I can’t ram my car into others who impede me, and I can’t take what I want, regardless of who owns it. Self-discipline is fundamental to our existence. Making the choice to do what is right, rather than what we may want in our “real” selves is the foundation of repentance, which is key to all spiritual progress. Indeed, we must “fake it till we make it” at first, but in doing so, we do eventually “make it” to the point our hearts change and “We’re not inclined to do evil anymore, but rather want to continually do good.” (Mosiah 3:5)
The ultimate example of this is our Savior in Gethsemane. He was being “real” when he said he didn’t want to do what was required and asked the Father to remove the cup from him. Had he continued being “real” he could have simply refused. The Father would not have forced him. But he laid aside his own will, and exercised self-discipline to do the Father’s will instead of his own. He made the choice against his own preference. And literally EVERYTHING depended on that one choice.
Regarding this thought: “Whose responsibility is it to ensure that everyone agrees not to dispute? I don't believe that responsibility lies solely with the person who disagrees; it should be shared by all parties involved because if you were able to listen, understand and truly consider you could come to mutual agreement. But in order for this to happen both parties need to work together. I think people choose not to dispute because they truly agree with one another.”
This feels like a veiled accusation that one “party” has failed to “listen, understand and truly consider.” This notion has been shared and disseminated for seven years, even as many, many people have reached out and spent hundreds, perhaps thousands of cumulative hours in listening, discussing, and attempting to truly consider the ideas of those who still feel to dispute. So I’m not sure what to make of this. (Continued)
As for the notion that “people choose not to dispute because they truly agree with one another” I think our Lord’s example shows the opposite. “The Lord could have disputed every day of His life with someone. He deliberately chose to not contend.” (T&C 174:2) His choice to not dispute wasn’t based on Him “truly agreeing” with his opponents. It was based on a conscious choice to not dispute, even though He was right and they were wrong. He most certainly didn’t agree with them.
DeleteWhen “all people truly agree with one another” we call that unanimity, which is a higher level of agreement than the Lord has asked of us in the Statement of Principles. All he has asked is that we choose to not dispute, like He did.
Regarding your professor’s blue and red truck example: The color of a truck is immutable, objective reality, and is not a matter of opinion. The vote of any group does not change the color of any truck. But things like the Guide and Standard assignment and its associated process are matters of opinion and preference, and subject to the choice of the group—Indeed commanded by God to be carried out by the choice of the group. Many possible approaches and processes could have worked. There is no scientific test to “prove” the right process or way to proceed, like there is with the color of the truck. Therefore, I have a great deal of difficulty applying the truck example here, except in a negative way, which I won’t do.
Regarding the patterns you observed at both the Women’s Conference and the Statement of Principles, I am eager to learn more about them. Would you consider sharing more detail about the patterns you observed and the lessons to be learned from them?
Ultimately, if we are ever to obey the Lord, stem the ongoing failure, and prevent the disaster barreling toward us (and it’s related sad experience) we MUST figure out how to reach mutual agreement. Can you offer concrete steps that will lead to those who still dispute agreeing to no longer do so in this matter? I sincerely want to know, and I desperately want to know how we can get there. In detail. What must we do? I welcome your ideas.
Kind regards,
Adrian
I am surprised that the Guide and Standard is still an issue. Weird. It is good. Could it be better? Probably, but it was a great experience. We all had different views and all were heard. Discussion was open and a Guide and Standard created with a unified agreement; plus the LORD accepted it. We entertained all other proposals, invited comments from the fellowship, talked to people on the phone and discussed them openly. We fasted and prayed, revisited our proposal and received a powerful personal witness that the LORD had accepted it. I am not aware of anyone on the Lot's committee feeling any different than being at peace with the whole process and result. The last I knew, Karen was a witness as to the inspiration and revelation that she observed us go through. I
ReplyDeleteI am working on keeping peace at home and the Lord has blessed me there. We are all involved in a great work. We must be about our Father’s business. It's critical to our salvation. May we be blessed with charity.
Jack
Thank you...agree!!
DeleteJack, I agree!
Delete