Sunday, September 29, 2019

Online Vote Regarding New T&C Section

Prior to the printing of the leather-bound scriptures, an online vote is underway regarding inclusion of a possible new section in the T&C. 

This was not proposed during the recent conference in Boise, ID because it only came to light in the past few days. 


  1. My only issue with this proposed section is the section heading which currently states, "Revelation given through Denver Snuffer during a general conference."
    I'm not sure the proposed section heading is completely accurate.
    It gives the impression that it was a revelation given to Denver during his his talk at the conference, which isn't the case, as far as I can see.

  2. Good suggestion. The header sill likely be updated to state:

    Revealed commentary delivered by Denver Snuffer...

  3. My only question is why the entire contents of that talk is not being included in the scriptures. From paragraph 3 of the text version of talk:

    “I want to declare that the only reason I have the audacity to address this topic candidly is because Those of whom I speak in this talk have permitted me to do so. Without Their approval, I would not presume to address this topic publicly”

    I’m not sure what could qualify a talk or body of material more to be included in Holy Scriptures than that declaration. Every word of that talk from beginning to end contains Light and Truth.

    Personally, it has opened the floodgates for me in seeing patterns and understanding a great many passages of scripture previously hidden to my view. I personally sustain and treasure that material as scripture. I recognize I am no one, but I sincerely believe that talk to be scripture and of unspeakably great worth to us and what we are trying to do.

    From page 6:

    “Proclaiming, “wisdom is better than rubies,” she asks us to receive Her instruction rather than seek silver and gold. Nothing else is to be compared with Her wisdom. She instructs in virtues that would make any person better. But Her instruction will also make living in peace with others possible. Nothing in this world is more desirable than acquiring wisdom: understanding and putting knowledge to wise use. Zion will require the wisdom to use pure knowledge in meekness, humility and charity. Zion will require Her influence.”

    Zion will REQUIRE Her influence. Her influence, if Zion is to come, is NOT optional. If we do not accept this talk as scripture, are we not already electing to at least partially set aside Her influence as a thing of naught? What path does that take us on?

    I don’t think it’s possible to take that talk seriously enough or study it enough. There is FAR more there than I have observed people are seeing. It is a precious gift to us. Sustaining it as scripture, to me, would only begin to show the proper appreciation and gratitude for those contents.

    Jay Todd

  4. "Wine or strong drink is not good, apart from the sacrament."

    Did Joseph use wine outside of the Sacrament? Did he mind the use of strong drink? Would Joseph have agreed with the above commentary?

  5. "I reproved him as Pharisaical and hypocritical and not edifying the people; and showed the Saints what temperance, faith, virtue, charity, and truth were. I charged the Saints motto follow the example of the adversary in accusing the brethren, and said, "If you do not accuse each other, God will not accuse you. If you have no accuser you will enter heaven, and if you will follow the revelations and instructions which God gives you through me, I will take you into heaven as my back load. If you will not accuse me, I will not accuse you. If you will throw a cloak of charity over my sins, I will over yours--for charity covereth a multitude of sins. What many people call sin is not sin; I do many things to break down superstition, and I will break it down;" I referred to the curse of Ham for laughing at Noah, while in his wine, but doing no harm. Noah was a righteous man, and yet he drank wine and became intoxicated; the Lord did not forsake him in consequence thereof, for he retained all the power of his priesthood, and when he was accused by Canaan, he cursed him by the priesthood which he held, and the Lord had respect to his word, and the priesthood which he held, notwithstanding he was drunk, and the curse remains upon the posterity of Canaan until the present day."
    Joseph Smith
    Nov 7th, 1841
    HC Vol. 4

  6. "Wednesday, 3.--Called at the office and drank a glass of wine with Sister Jenetta Richards, made by her mother in England, and reviewed a portion of the conference minutes."
    Joseph Smith
    May 3rd, 1843
    HC Vol. 5 Pg. 380

  7. "The company moved on to Andover, where the Sheriff of Lee County requested lodgings for the night for all the company. I was put up into a room and locked up with Captain Grover. It was reported to me that some of the brethren had been drinking whiskey that day in violation of the Word of Wisdom.
    I called the brethren in and investigated the case, and was satisfied that no evil had been done, and gave them a couple of dollars, with directions to replenish the bottle to stimulate them in the fatigues of their sleepless journey"
    Joseph Smith
    June 1843
    Millennial Star Vol. 21 Pg. 283

  8. JOSEPH SMITH, Mayor. W. RICHARDS, Recorder.
    The Council also passed "An ordinance for the health and convenience of travelers and other persons."
    Ordinance on the Personal Sale of Liquors.
    Section 1. Be it ordained by the City Council of Nauvoo, that the Mayor of the city be and is hereby authorized to sell or give spirits of any quantity as he in his wisdom shall judge to be for the health and comfort, or convenience of such travelers or other persons as shall visit his house from time to time.
    Passed December 12, 1843.
    HC Vol. 6, Pg. 111

  9. "January 29, 1844 - Capt[ain] White of Quincy was at the Mansion last night and this morning drank a toast"
    Joseph Smith
    The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith, edited by Scott H. Faulring, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1989, pg. 443

  10. "Dr. Richards uncorked the bottle, and presented a glass to Joseph, who tasted, as also Brother Taylor and the doctor..."
    June 27th, 1844
    HC Vol. 6, Pg. 616

  11. "Sometime after dinner we sent for some wine. It has been reported by some that this was taken as a sacrament. It was no such thing; our spirits were generally dull and heavy, and it was sent for to revive us. I think it was Captain Jones who went after it, but they would not suffer him to return. I believe we all drank of the wine, and gave some to one or two of the prison guards. We all of us felt unusually dull and languid, with a remarkable depression of spirits. In consonance with those feelings I sang a song, that had lately been introduced into Nauvoo, entitled, A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief', etc."
    June 27th, 1844
    HC Vol 7.

    1. Hey Anonymous, I sense you're trying to make a point...

      It's an interesting conundrum. Joseph clearly wasn't opposed to strong drink. That much is established. Likewise, there's no evidence he imbibed often or to excess.

      And though there are certainly statements and actions from him that don't oppose alcohol, we also have this, through him:

      "...inasmuch as any man drinks wine or strong drink among you, behold, it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves in your sacraments before him."

      A conundrum indeed.

      Nevertheless, who can dispute that it's good advice to avoid strong drink and drunkenness ?

    2. Adrian,

      I think it’s worth correcting that the portion you cited from the Word of Wisdom did not come through Joseph Smith. It came through Emma, and much is said about that in the section being voted on. There is actually a lot of subtle stuff there that reveals much about Joseph and Emma and the contents of the Our Divine Parents talk.

      Not trying to be adversarial, I just believe this a very important detail.

    3. Adrian, thanks for the response. While I don't disagree with you on the point regarding abuse I hope its clear that those who choose to consume these type of drinks can do so wisely and are not unfairly labeled.

      I hope in sharing this my comments are not taken as being argumentative or froward. It is not my intent. They are simply questions that surface as research is done and ought to be considered.

      I'm actually glad you brought up that verse. The section which that came from was received in 1833 (10 years prior to the many quotes referenced).

      The question is then raised: Did Joseph Smith live the Word of Wisdom? Did he live according to our understanding of if? These quotes seem to suggest he had a different understanding than we do. They also suggest a different view than Denver's comment from that talk.

      I am sure Joseph knew of the existence of Heavenly Mother and in no way dishonored her through these actions. I am sure he gained hidden treasures of knowledge, drank an MBD at Mooessers and wasn't weary, etc, etc.

      Hyrum certainly gave his opinion regarding coffee and tea. Could this quote simply be Denver giving his opinion as well?

    4. Open Mind,

      Here's the heading to the revelation I quoted:

      "A revelation given at Kirtland, Ohio, 27 February 1833, through Joseph Smith Jr. for the benefit of the saints."

      So I'm not sure where you're getting that it came through Emma, not Joseph. It appears it came TO Emma THROUGH Joseph. Or am I missing something?

    5. Anonymous,

      I agree that this wise advice from Mother should never be used as a weapon or tool to judge others. It is wise advice, and we do well to heed it. But it is not commandment (as is noted in the word of Wisdom) and Joseph demonstrated as much.

      Heaven knows I enjoy the mild barley drinks, and since they seem to be recommended, I have no concerns with partaking. The distilled spirits, not so much.

  12. As I understand it, this revelation will not be placed at the end, but a couple sections from the end. Can anyone confirm this?

  13. If adopted, it would be positioned chronologically as Section 175, moving the last 3 existing sections one step farther along the list.

    Chris Hamill

  14. Adrian,

    I think we are all missing something. That’s why I think it’s important the Our Divine Parents talk gets included in the scriptures.

    But you are correct about one thing I had misremembered the description in the comments up for inclusion about the process of Word of Wisdom coming to us. I still think there is more to understand about this section which is a very distinct one in our scriptures.

    Was it lecture 1 of the 10 lectures (I think it was one of the first ones) that Denver commented on our gift to look out over an audience and filter out all the women? I think we still have that “gift”

  15. Does anyone know why the vote ended early?

  16. A post is forthcoming that will explain the halted vote and what has been going on for the past couple of days that caused it. Sorry for the delay in updates.

    Chris Hamill


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