Thursday, December 14, 2017


And there shall be no disputations among you as there hath hitherto been, neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine as there hath hitherto been. For verily, verily I say unto you, He that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger one with another. Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger one against another, but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away. (3 Nephi 5:8 RE)

I’ve been thinking more about the Lord’s definition of mutual agreement: “As between one another, you choose to not dispute.”

The use of the imperative “shall” in the above scripture makes “no disputations” a commandment, not a suggestion. And Christ’s own words here make this commandment a part of His doctrine. Therefore, choosing not to dispute is required of those who wish to obey the Doctrine of Christ.

I marvel at how consistent our Lord has been in His view of what matters, and I likewise marvel at how blind we can be to His words.


  1. And, we received instruction as early as 2010 on how to do this right, and we're not...

    "Becoming One:
    The idea of being “one” (as Christ put it in His great Intercessory Prayer in John 17: 20-23) has been oftentimes misunderstood and the source of abuse. There should be nothing compulsory about this process. “Oneness” is a byproduct, and not an end. When we seek it as an end, then we have missed the opportunity to achieve it.
    Believing “oneness” is achieved by making people think alike, look alike, be alike, or behave alike is so wrongheaded as to be Satanic. The ideal expressed by Christ as He prayed to the Father was that we should each attempt, in our limited capacities, to be more like Christ. The closer we approach that ideal, the more we become “one” as a byproduct. Merely giving a list of behavior as the way to “oneness” is not only foolish, but it is impossible. It must come from within, and cannot come from without.
    Paul’s 14th Chapter of Romans is actually the only way in which “oneness” can be attained. Let everyone decide what they believe will make them closer to Christ, and allow them the freedom to follow that path. Let all others refrain from judging the behavior of others. Whether they “eateth herbs” or “eateth meat” let each be free to do what they believe to be right before God. “Judge not him that eateth: for God hath received him.” Let everyone do what in their own heart they believe is right before God, because God will respect anything done on His behalf. And let everyone else refrain from judging these honest efforts, but bear with one another.
    This will give rise to widely diverse behavior. but will result in an absolute uniformity of intent. Everyone should be free to do what they believe God is asking them to do. And everyone should also respect the honest efforts of others.
    Over time, perhaps over generations, behavior will grow closer as a result of the purity of the underlying intent. Not because someone is compelling uniformity, but because light and truth will eventually bring harmony.

    Being “one” just as building Zion cannot be a goal in itself. It is always a byproduct of the kind of people which changed hearts produce."
    --Denver Snuffer, Blog, February 27, 2010.

    1. I would mention that the only objective here is to come to agreement on Christs doctrine, that is it. Using Denvers words against him doesnt work here. We can have literally nothing in common BUT belief in Christs doctrine and we would achieve what God has asked.

  2. "We asked what it would take to form Zion, and the messenger said it had to start with the heart not the head, but that we were stuck in our heads, believing we could think our way into being of one heart, but instead we had to love our way into being of one mind.

    We asked what does that look like? The messenger said stop asking to see what Zion looks like and how it is organized, and what rules need to be followed, and instead focus on what Zion would feel like inside of you and then let that feeling of love and joy grow." -- story from a friend of mine

  3. Adrian,
    I posted this on the other blog, but no one answered the questions, so I'll ask them here:

    I would like to present these 3 questions to everyone:

    • Do you believe Paul and Moroni, who said that charity (the pure love of Christ) NEVER fails?

    • And do you believe that ALL things (besides charity), including prophecies, tongues and knowledge will fail, as Paul and Moroni proclaimed?

    • If so, why is this statement being established on anything less than charity?

    Jared's "Rock of Jesus Christ" proposal will fail.
    The "Lotster" version (of which group I once belonged) will fail.
    Every proposal listed will fail.

    Charity, (or "love") will NOT fail.

    Love is patient.
    Love is kind.
    Love isn’t jealous.
    Love doesn’t brag.
    Love doesn’t accuse.
    Love isn’t arrogant.
    Love isn’t rude.
    Love doesn’t contend, but does away with such things.
    Love doesn’t think about itself or seek its own advantage.
    Love does not give up on people.
    Love isn’t irritable.
    Love doesn’t keep a record of others’ complaints.
    Love isn’t happy with injustice, but it is happy with the truth.
    Love puts up with all things, trusts in all things, hopes for all things, endures all things.

    Love never fails.

    Jared has explicitly said that the G&S must not curse, harm or misinform. (I acknowledge that me mentioning it may be construed as keeping record of his complaint, but it is also meant to reach out and hopefully offer something which might work for him and others.)

    If we all acted in this way, we would BLESS each other. For it is the greatest gift of all the gifts of the Spirit. It would also benefit us, as we produced fruits of our charitable actions. We would be informed through charity by learning how the children of God behave, and understanding the whispers of the Spirit.

    ---Doug Larson

    PS - If we cannot "mutually agree" to a statement of charity, let those who do agree go live it and see what fruits are born.

  4. “Wisdom counsels mankind to align their words with their hearts, but mankind refuses to take counsel from Wisdom.” (Answer-Covenant pg.1)

  5. The Guide and the Standard is not about us. It is intended to inform millions of people of God's current work. How can they be informed if we wont include any of His current teachings? We are so focused on ourselves, we cant see the larger picture.

    If we are to not be burned up at His coming, certain things need to be done away with. Churches built up to get gain. Churches built up to get power of the flesh. Churches built up to be popular. It is true that we cannot compel people to obey these principles but a failure to teach people these things is not love. It is not love to leave our fellow man in ignorance and hope that they will inquire of the Holy Spirit about the correct things.

    The Holy Spirit does not force itself upon people. People must ask. God has asked us to spread the word of these things and of the new baptism. We should not be so focused on ourselves that we fail in this effort. The burden does not belong solely to Denver Snuffer. It belongs to us, God's covenant people

  6. When considering whether or not to participate in the covenant, I saw the contention, hostility (in some instances), and mean-spiritedness within the Remnant movement and ultimately decided it wasn't for me. My experiences were relatively minor, but I know others who were more forcefully and negatively impacted. I hope I'm not speaking out of turn. It's not my intent to accuse. These were just my personal observations. I do sincerely hope the endeavor is successful. It would a remarkable thing!

    I'm glad to see more focus on charity. Moroni, knowing our sorry state, asked God to give us one thing--grace which leads to charity. Interestingly, the Lord didn't address the request. He simply acknowledged Moroni's faithfulness.

    If we fail to have charity, everything else is moot point. There can be no Zion. Denver is absolutely right in the citation above. Love is, indeed, a byproduct. It's a result of a softened heart, true humility, and love for God and our fellow man. One day I realized that something about the conversion stories and spiritual manifestations in the BOM. (I'm sure many of you have, too.) Without fail, each person's first desire after experience God was to share what they had just experienced: Lehi, Enos, Alma, Alma Jr, etc. Every single last one of them. They couldn't bear the thought of anyone falling into darkness and not partaking of the fruit of the tree of life. In my humble estimation, this concern is a sign, if not *the* sign or measure of true conversion to Christ. If we don't have the welfare of our fellow man first and foremost in our hearts and minds, are we truly converted?

    Lastly, I don't know if its ever been addressed (my apologies if it has), but its my understanding that the remnant of Lehi remains unidentified. We have an obligation to locate these individuals, wherever they are, and bring the Gospel of Christ to them because of their role in the restoration of land and covenants to Israel.

    Like Joseph once said, if we fail, the Lord will find another people.