He also preached that all mankind would be saved on the last day, they didn’t need to be afraid or worry, but they could relax and be happy. He claimed that because the Lord had created and redeemed everyone, in the end, everyone would have eternal life. He successfully taught these things, and many believed what he said.
—Alma 1:1 CoC
I'm creating a video series on the attributes, teachings and behaviors of Nehor and his followers. I will post installments here as I complete them.
An anonymous coward submitted a comment that consisted entirely of quotations from a fundraising letter I wrote in 2024 for the Book of Mormon Hebrew translation project. Since there was no other comment with it, I’m not sure of the commenter’s intent.
ReplyDeleteIf the intent was to help raise funds for the translation work, then thank you, but this is not the place. This is why I did not post the comment—I did not want even the appearance that I’m using this blog post or these videos to raise funds.
If the intent was to imply that I have somehow practiced priestcraft by raising money for the translation, then the attempt demonstrates a woeful lack of understanding of what priestcraft actually is. Maybe watch the video again.
For the record, I have not personally received any financial benefit from the project whatsoever. In actual fact it has cost me tens of thousands of dollars. All funds donated have gone directly to the translation work and are used exclusively to pay for the services provided by outside professionals, all of which are properly invoiced and documented. The books are handled by an accountant whom I pay out of my own funds. The donated funds are segregated in their own account, and everything is fully documented.
I, and the other Covenant Christian volunteers, have cumulatively spent thousands of hours on this project and have not received any financial compensation whatsoever.
In defense of Adrian and any priestcraft accusations I would like to say that I spoke with him personally about donating money to the Hebrew translation and to my surprise he told me that he was confident that they had enough funds to continue with the project and that he didn’t need any more donations. It’s the first time I was ever turned down by someone raising funds because they already had enough. I thought about all the donations/tithing I’ve made to the LDS church over my life and never once did they tell me they had sufficient for their needs. In my direct personal experience with Adrian I have found him to be as straightforward and honest as anyone I’ve ever met.
DeleteSorry, normally people have Google profile option on. I didn’t realize it was anonymous until after I hit submit. That was me! ❤️😘
ReplyDeleteThank you, Aimee. I retract my anonymous coward comment.
Delete“my blog my rules” …spoken like a true Larson- cancel, delete, censor , cast out and destroy anyone that stands up or opposes you. Down with the remnant hierarchy! ✊ -cc nobodys! 😘😘
DeletePretty ballsy of you to lob such egregious accusations behind a wall of anonymity. Super constructive. If you’re gonna make a dick move like that, at least spell the man’s name correctly.
DeleteThank you for all the work you and the other volunteers are doing to bring forward this translation project.
ReplyDeleteThank you for the work and sacrifice you have done. Its seen and noted by many. I look forward to your series on Nehor's. It will be enlightening and will cast light on our day. Glad to see some new posts! Good to see you back sharing your gifts of study insight with all.
ReplyDeleteAdrian, I’m wondering what you mean by putting this out. What is your intent? Where are you coming from? I’m assuming that you’re putting this out with your own personal context of the current “big issue,” aka the Louis Women’s Councils.
ReplyDeleteAre you relating Nehor to Louis by any means? Are you relating yourself to Gideon? I just want to know where you’re coming from, because listening to this I was thinking, c’mon dude… you’ve got to be aware that your listeners have the context in mind that I mentioned earlier. So what are you trying to do here? And sure, you could say “I’m simply going over scripture,” but I feel like it’s a pretty simple theme to catch on to...... You’re well aware of what Louis was publicly charged for in WCL2, being that your sweet wife (that was not sarcastic btw) was on the council and you were a witness. One of those charges was priestcraft. So why would you be bringing up scriptures about priestcraft knowing that your listeners are aware of the current context?
I’m assuming you’re using your influence and these scriptures in a way that beats up on Louis even more, and possibly to increase your own standing and following.
I have my assumptions, and I truly want to know where you’re coming from! I am perfectly fine with my assumptions being challenged and corrected—that’s why I’m asking. I want to know what is truly going on for you. :)
Hi Savannah,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your question.
My intent is to point out patterns and teaching in scripture, which is also my habit. I hosted and taught a weekly fellowship scripture study for many years, and anyone who attended that will find this current study very much in line with my approach for the last decade or more.
Certainly I have thoughts about correlation between what is in scripture and what is going on around us. But anyone who knows me will know that is my default state. I’m constantly looking at the world through the lens of scripture.
Despite that, I’m trying very hard to leave myself and my opinions out of this study. I’m sticking with what is written in scripture and interpretation of the situation in terms of those events at that time, not any events during our time. The message that I hope to convey is SO much bigger and more important than a women’s council that happened nearly 2 years ago, or the procedure questions that were settled nearly a year ago. These warnings surpass petty grievances and ongoing disputes.
Naturally, viewers will have all sorts of ways they apply scripture to current events, as they should. But I leave that up to every individual to determine for themselves, using whatever set of lenses they prefer. I won’t draw any comparisons here other than to say that a comparison of myself and Gideon had never even once crossed my mind until you brought it up—and my initial response was, “Are you serious? You think I see myself in Gideon?” I’m far more concerned with the ways I resemble Nehor than I am with trying to see myself in any positive light. If others are drawing such a comparison in their minds, I believe they are sorely mistaken.
As for the notion of increasing my “standing” or “following” you clearly don’t know me at all. I attempt to do what I feel the Lord requires of me, and then I take the arrows and false accusations for doing it. I find this agonizing. I don’t want the spotlight, I don’t want attention, and frankly I really don’t even want comments. I certainly don’t want “followers.” I find such an idea repugnant.
Since you asked, and you want to know what is truly going on for me, I’ll let down the facade and be vulnerable for a moment. What is going on for me is anxiety, struggle, and lots of tears. A constant feeling that I’m not equal the the tasks the Lord has asked of me. A crushing realization that I’m forever inadequate and utterly reliant on him. Concern that my own failings may harm His work and harm others. Realization that the stakes couldn’t be higher and I will likely fail. Gratitude that he has not let me struggle alone. Sorrow to see those I love so badly harmed by people who should know better. Immense appreciation for small kindnesses. But none of this is why I’m producing these videos.
ReplyDeleteI hated writing the above, because this is supposed to be about scripture, NOT about me. I am not important nor a worthy topic for discussion. But I’m trying to be honest and transparent because you asked.
I truly appreciate your willingness to share your thoughts and study of scripture. It helps inform my own study and thoughts. Thanks
ReplyDeleteThank you Adrian. I appreciate all your research and comments. I see the world events in these scriptures and a strong call to strengthen my resolve to repent and connect more securely with my Lord and Savior.
ReplyDeleteIt would be nice if folks chose to stop beating the drum about who is right and what they "assume" is being said.
Many years ago after a car accident and brain injury, part of my healing was to recognize that the assumptions I had about others was often about me and my issues. It's called a mirror.
It would be nice if we would give each other the benefit of the doubt, mean what we say and say what we mean. No name calling or assuming what we think someone else is saying.
Thank you again for your words.
Janeen
Adrian, thank you for expounding the scriptures in such an interesting way, on such an important topic. I too have been studying the topic of Nehorism since it jumped out at me last spring. In fact I was so intrigued by it, I included a few slides about it in the power point I presented at the Women’s Conference in April. But you have taken my understanding to a new level, so thank you. Dave and I appreciate you so much and the many silent sacrifices you make. We are looking forward to the upcoming episodes. 👍🏻
ReplyDelete“Between heavens and the earth.” Earth is the physical planet according to the glossary. The world is the people. Nehor did not acknowledge his error to any man what he had done, only to heaven in his pride. Making his repentance incomplete for you must reconcile with those sinned against to make your repentance complete.
ReplyDeleteAny ignorance of the responsibility of “duty” renders one’s remorse eternally impotent and lacking the faith to save.
Micah
Having been in law enforcement I can share with you that hanging suspends the offender between "Heaven and Earth". Heaven won't have that person and neither will the Earth. Hanging was a method of execution among the House of Israel for this reason.
DeleteGood points have been made. I think Nehor follows the pattern of his father Satan. I believe Satan convinced people to follow him in rebelling against God by promising gain without work. Gain in status, power and glory. People do not fight and risk life and limb simply because a man is charismatic. They do it for the same reason the charismatic man does. To gain without effort. God requires us to learn and obey commands so that we are capable of living in a civilized society which operates in harmony to produce peace and prosperity for all. Satan and Nehor propose a shortcut. The pattern by which the Nehors operate is by promising the Lamanites the spoils of the hardworking Nephites in exchange for fighting with them to gain control of the government. The pattern is repeated today in our country. Some thoughtful contemplation can reveal which groups are playing which role.
ReplyDeleteThomas McCulley.
Go with God, Adrian. Thankyou for your sacrifices and service.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI think part of the difficulty here is the use of implicature or strategic ambiguity. A warning pattern is introduced during a live conflict, listeners naturally connect it to specific people and then the messenger declines to confirm or deny the application. Which preserves 'plausible deniability' while still allowing the accusation to function socially.
ReplyDeleteThat's not neutrality. Its accusation without accountability.
If Louis is being accused of priestcraft or false teaching, then those claims should be made plainly, defined clearly and supported with evidence. If that isn't whats happening, then invoking Nehor and Amlicite warnings in this context risks stirring people up against others without clarity or responsibility.
The warnings about Nehor and the Amlicites are serious. That’s exactly why they deserve careful application.... not implication.
Kim Barlow
That is very well arranged and spoken Kim. You highlight the situation very well. I agree that if the principles you stated are used in a balanced way, fairness and accountability could be realized by all.
DeleteDaniel Morgan
Please excuse the intermission in the show, folks… and enjoy Scene 2.
ReplyDeleteAdrian, thank you very much for responding — I truly appreciate it!
Here’s the problem: you and many others are smelling like fish, swimming like fish, and looking like fish — I can practically hear the “blub blub” — yet somehow I’m then told you’re a goose, while others insist they’re pigs, donkeys, and turkeys. I say, not so! (Do not take this as an insult, take it as an example of what is going on) Please don’t gaslight me or others who are noticing the same things I am. I’m saying I smell something fishy going on here, and it simply won’t do!
Adrian, I’ve gone through your 2025-2026 blog posts. You may have a private fellowship study, but on your public‑influence blog you have been following women’s councils specifically after the April 12 conference (which was about the Louis women’s council). So with that being the case… actions are speaking louder than words for me here. And if you truly find this particular women’s council to be a “petty grievance,” then… Well, hop on the school bus and welcome to High School 2.0: Women’s Council Edition. Because it looks like you're invested in petty grievances as well.
Leaving this current blog post for everyone to interpret in their own way is like what the food companies are doing in America — making poison and leaving it up to the person to decide if they eat it or not. Ummm no. It’s all covered up with lies and deceit, and they are never transparent about what is actually in their product. So how can people actually have a choice?
So tell me honestly:
Am I sorely mistaken to say you are drawing a comparison between Nehor and Louis?
Please answer the question plainly. If you are making that comparison, then let’s talk about it. Let’s actually work through it. But avoiding clarity here is causing damage, Adrian, whether intended or not.
And no, Adrian, I do not know you well. I’m not sure I want to if you have a facade you are holding up? I am only interested in truly knowing people behind their facades….. Just like the one you are saying you dropped for your last response to me… and well, since you said you dropped it there, I will go off of that.
First of all, thank you for being vulnerable. I’m sure I can’t fully understand your struggle. Those feelings you described sound paralyzing. There is hardly anything more exhausting than feeling like you’re failing the Lord, my sincerest sympathy for your heartache, Adrian.
When you mentioned your loved ones being “so badly harmed,” I can only assume you mean in relation to the current issue I’ve been referencing. If that’s the case, then please help me understand — how so? I genuinely have sympathy for any hardship your loved ones may have faced as a result of women’s councils. That's hard… truly!
When you say they were harmed “by people who should know better,” and we take that in context with the current situation, it makes it sound like others were supposed to read minds, stay silent, avoid addressing concerns, and simply be nice.
Because we both know the only type of “harm” you could be referring to — given the context — would be things like verbal and written confrontation, questions, accountability, concerns, assumptions, & frustrations. If you’re referring to something else, please clarify. I also understand that people can have very different experiences of the same situations. If that’s the case, please share your family’s experiences. But let’s stick to real situations:)
I know some of this will be read playfully, but i am not sarcastic by nature. I mean what i am saying:)
I am grateful to have this opportunity to engage in this discussion, thank you:)
Hi Savannah,
DeleteThough I appreciate your persistence, I won’t be goaded into making the public comparison you clearly want me to make. As I’ve already stated, I’m teaching principles and patterns from scripture. Nothing more. As you can see from other comments, people are making the comparisons they notice and think most applicable, and a number of them don’t seem to match the one you’re promoting.
This blog (and its comments section) are not about discussing me. I’m not important. The scriptures are. I probably shouldn’t have answered your query “I want to know what is truly going on for you” because it inappropriately shifted the focus to me.
Likewise this forum is not intended for discussions of other people either. You’ve brought up parallels you see, and they were personal. Others have brought up those they see, but in general, non-personal terms.
Please stop trying to put words in my mouth. I’m only teaching scripture. Your interpretation is yours. Other’s interpretations are theirs. Don’t presume you know mine.
If all scripture is for internal application on some level, then I’m gonna apply this to myself and feel the burn.
ReplyDeleteI think one of the reasons I could find myself drawn to Nehors teachings is because I believe in a loving God. It makes sense right? It comes from a good place. God is merciful and He loves the whole world. Universal salvation is very appealing. If God is perfect and all-loving and why wouldn’t he save all of his children? I mean eventually, right? Wouldn’t a perfect God create a perfect plan? I mean, maybe we’ll have to tread a thorny path but eventually we’ll all get there.
But herein lies the rub. When we truly comprehend the full character of God. Then all of a sudden, many of these false teachings fall away.
So is it that we know that mercy cannot rob justice. And God is also perfectly just hence the need for a Saviour. So then isn’t it Jesus who saves everyone I mean eventually, right?
No, once again, Jesus is the perfect image of His Father and fully embodies all of the divine attributes.
The principle that helps discern against Nehor’s brand of universalism is agency. God has a deep and abiding reverence for our agency. We have to choose to follow Him. And not just once. Again and again. I cannot rest on my laurels, or on a misunderstanding of the character of God.
My agency is my ability to follow and obey God’s instructions. When I do this, I gather light and truth. This brings great glory to God. Implicit in Nehor’s teachings is that God would ultimately compel us to heaven. And there is no glory in that for him or for us. The true glory is in us being so completely sold out for Jesus and filled with love for Him and the plan that we choose Him; over everything else in every moment of every day, small decisions and big decisions. We choose Him and His way. He is the Way.
Well said, Peter!
DeleteSomeone sent me a link to this short video from Jordan Peterson, which describes Nehor with uncanny precision. It seems the pattern exists today, just as it has existed since the beginning. It's now described in psychological terms, but the traits and behaviors are unmistakably the same.
ReplyDeleteHere's the link:
https://youtube.com/shorts/qLvqROdzhkI?si=NpzeMmG2edfOZrIM
I wasn't familiar with the term, "Machiavellian" or the "dark triad" and had to look them up. They describe Nehor far better than I have.
Speaking of Jordan Peterson, part 1 of his series on the Sermon on the Mt is up on YouTube. It’s REMARKABLE. Cannot recommend it enough.
DeleteJay Todd
ReplyDeleteIf any discussion of Nehor, priestcraft, influence, or pride is assumed to be a veiled accusation against a specific person in the community, then meaningful scripture discussion becomes impossible. Under that approach, principles or events from scripture become unusable whenever they resemble real situations. That is clearly not a workable standard.
I happened to read the comments before watching the videos, so I specifically watched for insinuations or veiled allusions to particular individuals. I did not see evidence of that.
What I observed was Adrian doing what he has always done on his blog, which I’ve read since its beginning. He teaches the scriptures and teaches pattern recognition. Something the text repeatedly encourages.
If someone believes insinuation is happening, the claim should be supported with specific quotes and timestamps showing where individuals are being implicated. Without that, it’s just projection.
A healthier approach is to engage the principles being taught directly.
When I watched the videos, the first place the message took me was me, and the risks of failure I face. The next place it went was to America. The Book of Mormon is a warning to all of us, and Adrian’s words pointed my mind to something much larger than a single individual.
Thankyou Taylor. Well said.
DeleteSo sad you are getting flack for making videos on Nehor. I'm not embroiled in the latest fiasco and contentions and anger, so I don't get why you are being accused, but to each their own, I suppose.
ReplyDeleteAt some point, I hope there is a remnant of the LDS remnant who profess to believe that Denver was called by God to teach the 10 lectures; a remnant who fully and truly follows Christ, a remnant who looks to their own heart and failings in humility if someone irritates them, a remnant who -if they see no Zion- think, "The fault is in me, not in you and you and them and them." (For all we know, God has already established Zion and we have not been invited.)
Anyway, I haven't watched the videos, Adrian (I prefer to read blogposts rather than watch them); I just saw some of the comments and wanted to be supportive.
Keep blindly supporting this coward, too afraid to get in the kitchen and defend his conduct. He’s here to divide us and encourage all of us to join him in judging others. Soooo many blind sheep here for you to influence to join you in your judgment of others, adrian. “The fault is in me.” Maybe you ought to consider that for just one minute before continuing trying to stir more hearts with your “teaching of scripture”. It’s almost like you didn’t listen to the words of a real Prophet of God recently.
DeleteAdrian, thank you for the clarification that you're not applying the Nehor narrative to present day personalities.
ReplyDeleteAfter listening again with that in mind, I can see that Lou doesn't fit the scriptural pattern at all. He's not a public teacher seeking followers, doesn't speak at conferences, doesn't maintain a platform & hasn't tried to gather influence or popularity.
That shift in perspective helps me receive the videos more clearly as pure scripture study rather than veiled commentary on individuals.
Part of my initial confusion came from your description of Nehor as an “alpha male” and aggressive. I agree Lou isn't passive aggressive - he's direct- but listening again, I realize the broader Nehor pattern (priestcraft, removing repentance urgency, pursuing honor, escalating to violence) simply doesn't apply here. I apologize for assuming a connection that wasn't intended.
For what it’s worth, I’d genuinely welcome hearing more from Lou directly. Different voices and perspectives enrich the community, especially from those who speak less publicly.
Thanks again for clarifying!
Kim Barlow
Kim,
ReplyDeleteIt’s Amberli Peterson here. (For some reason it didn’t give me the option of my Google profile this time?)
I echo your closing thought. I too would genuinely welcome hearing more from Lou directly.
Indeed, your sentiment speaks directly to a burning set of questions that have pervaded the Movement most of the last two years. Questions such as: Why doesn’t Louis speak for himself? Where is HIS voice in all of this? Why does it seem to be a dedicated group of women who repeatedly step in for Louis to speak for and defend him - as you and Savannah Willis have done here?
How are we to rightly understand Louis’s intentions and actions when all the questions being asked are only and always answered by a third party stepping up to the microphone in his absence? How do you account for his absence? How does he? When is he going to step up and address the dozens of questions that only he can rightfully answer?
Why aren’t you placing the onus on him, where it belongs, to answer for himself, with his own words? Why does a group of women seek to rescue him from that duty by constantly intervening in his behalf - with their words and their explanations?
Don’t we all, as individuals, have a duty to show up and speak up for ourselves? Why is Louis the exception?
I ask these questions in total sincerity as I am truly seeking to better understand a situation that only grows worse by Louis’ willful silence in this ongoing discussion. Any insight you can offer would be greatly welcomed.
Amberli
No, Adrian, you are NOT answering my question! If you are not making that comparison between Nehor and Louis, then make it known.
ReplyDeleteAre you relating Nehor to Louis?
It’s a SIMPLE
YES OR NO??
If you can’t confirm or deny, then how can you say it’s only my interpretation? For all I know, with the lack of answering the question, you are in fact comparing the two and not wanting to admit it.
I am happy to be accountable to God and to anyone watching for the assumptions I make. If I’m wrong in those assumptions, I want to know why — and to actually understand how I’m wrong — from you, from others, and from God. I’m tired of feeling like I’m wrong simply because people don’t like my assumptions or the way I’m trying to work things out for myself. I’m also quite over the indirect shaming and the emotions it stirs up in me.
If I’m wrong, then MAKE IT MAKE SENSE.
I know God does and will.
And no Adrian, you are important… just like I am. Zion isn’t made up from scripture fluff — it’s made up of actual people. That’s what I am trying to do here. Work things out. I see no better forum to work this out than here; this is perfect! Public issues should stay public while figuring them out.
I see how you think I am putting words in your mouth, but again, what have you actually said to correct my core assumption? Adrian, MAKE IT MAKE SENSE!
(also since you cannot hear my tone of voice, i am not yelling. I am simply being bold)
Hi Again Savannah,
DeleteFirst, as I’ve already stated, “I’m teaching principles and patterns from scripture. Nothing more.” I’m not sure why that is so hard for you to understand. Which part of “nothing more” allows for more? Which of my words are you attempting to apply to someone and then claim it was actually me? I have made no such applications. Why do you persist in trying to apply these teachings in ways that I have not? Are you suggesting that I have no right to teach from scripture because YOU see parallels with particular situations and people? Again your interpretation are your own.
Second, I’ve clearly stated that this forum is not for discussion of other people now living. It is neither fair nor kind for you (and others) to keep doing so. If you want to openly discuss how these scriptural teachings might or might not apply to people you know, you’ll have to do that somewhere else. My blog, my rules.
I will not post any further comments on the topic of applying these scriptures to any person now living.
As a reminder (and something we should already know!!) we ought to be applying the scriptures to ourselves and learning to recognize dangerous patterns of false teachings and their resulting behaviors so we can guard against giving any heed to them ourselves. We can’t control others.
NOTICE: Despite my efforts to discourage it, some people have continued to attempt to make comparisons between Nehor and people now living, and then attempted to make me responsible for those comparisons.
ReplyDeleteThe purpose of this blog is to discuss scripture. There is so much we can fruitfully discuss and apply without resorting to naming names or pointing fingers. The idea is to learn from one another to become better followers of Christ through enlightened discussion.
Any further comments that include references to anyone now living (including pseudonyms or non-reference references like "you-know-who") will simply not be published. My blog, my rules.
If you want to discuss principles and teachings, you are welcome and invited. If you want to point fingers and lob accusations, please do that somewhere else.
Thankyou! Much appreciated.
DeleteI only know what was said in the videos because of others' comments elsewhere in my life (and it sounds like the videos are quite good), and those comments make me think the videos are very applicable to the happenings of our own day - of people living now.
DeleteI think it is the height of conceit to think that this little brawl in the "Snuffer movement" created by certain people is so important when the country is on the verge of destruction because of our pride, anger, contention, refusal to repent, refusal to forgive, and the increasing violence all around our country.
Surely, too many people have fallen into the perfect mousetrap as they bray and howl that the other side is at fault, and won't look at their own sins. And that applies to both our tiny little movement and the political world at large, as this country marches to its own (prophesied) demise.
This series is making me reconsider some of the past political landscape over the past 10 years.
ReplyDeleteNehorism as you've exposed it certainly appears to be alive and thriving (even if camoflaged) in current LDS doctrine. Remembering and appreciating a 2010 blog post that hit it head on:
ReplyDeletehttps://denversnuffer.com/2010/05/this-is-why-i-didnt-like-it/
Amberli
ReplyDeleteI can’t respond to your questions in the comments since they’re being censored, and I can’t reply on the women’s email group either because this topic isn’t allowed there. I also noticed you deleted your Slack account. It feels a little strange that questions and statements can be made publicly from one side, while responses from the other side don’t have the same space. That dynamic reminds me a bit of how public conversations sometimes work in politics.
I’ve tried to keep this message within Adrian’s posted guidelines, so hopefully it gets through. If you’re sincerely looking for answers or conversation, you know how to reach me. I’m open to talking directly. I’m not interested in throwing punches from a distance and disappearing, I’d rather have an honest conversation.
Kim
Thank you Adrian for this informative series. As always, I have gained important knowledge. I appreciate the sacrifices your family has made in bringing forth the gospel to others. You and your family have greatly blessed my family and I am forever thankful for you and your good works.
ReplyDeleteJoanna B
You are nothing more than a wolf leading sheep to judging other sheep. Keep distracting us from the most important talk ever given to the cc group.
ReplyDelete“My blog. My rules.” lol. Quit being a bitch and get in the kitchen and defend or justify our accusations of your conduct. Pathetic. Adrian Larsen=heart-stirring coward
ReplyDeleteHey there, "Anonymous" people. What you’re displaying right now— is that who we want to be? Calling Adrian names from behind an anonymous one?
DeleteFirst of all, put your name behind your words.
Second, I’d ask you: where is your heart right now? What do name-calling and accusations actually accomplish?
And remember, there is a difference between assumptions and accusations, even if some people don’t think there is.
Don’t forget to use wisdom when applying the mousetrap talk.
Anonymous,
DeleteIf you’re going to accuse someone, sign your name. Be accountable for your words. Anonymous insults don’t strengthen an argument — they reveal weakness. Ad hominem attacks substitute insult for evidence and sound reasoning.
Adrian has attached his name to his words. That requires more courage than hiding behind anonymity.
Jennifer and Savannah,
DeleteThere is no need to defend Adrian. All the insults only serve to hold up a mirror to the accusers/insulters, providing them a valuable opportunity to see something about themselves. Same holds true when/if Adrian or any of us accuse/insult others.
Defending from and going after those that insult is playing the same game.
God bless and help us all.
Jay Todd
Jay, I’m not defending Adrian. I’m speaking to a broader principle: accountability for our words. If we choose to speak publicly, we should be willing to do so openly rather than anonymously.
DeleteI don’t disagree necessarily Jennifer. But who are any of us to declare what “should” be? We must drop this incessant need to control everyone else. You can’t force people to post as you would like them to post. We are all equal and accountable to God alone. Let the anonymous posters identify themselves as the very thing they accuse others of doing and being. Neither you nor I possess the authority you are attempting to wield.
DeleteJay Todd
Sure i see your point Jay, however just like you’re coming on here to state something you believe, I am too. I’m sharing what I believe, and if you think that’s “controlling,” then by your own definition it seems you’re being just as controlling as you claim I am.
Deleteif someone is going to—first of all—do it anonymously, and secondly, crudely name-call Adrian, I’m going to make it known that I personally do not believe in doing that. I think we could approach how we think and feel with more wisdom.
Savannah,
DeleteNow that you’ve further clarified your intent, I can better understand. Your opinion and feelings are important and I think you should share them. That’s all I was doing with mine too. I was not attempting to control you in any fashion. In fact, it seems you are a bit low level in profanity laced insults to counter these anonymous folks. To demonstrate that I’m not attempting to control you, if you’d like, I can give you some pointers to better go after these anonymous folks. If insulting the insulters and accusing the accusers is a skill you’d like to better hone, I’m your guy. But I’m not so sure you’d want to be more like me. I don’t recommend it.
You know… Adrian, who was the target of some of these personal attacks, actually posted those comments. It demonstrates in his present state, he isn’t seeking total power and authority. It should tell us something about what he did, and didn’t actually mean, when he said “my blog, my rules”. One of the anonymous commenters seems to have jumped all over that statement he made, and formed an apparently hasty conclusion without sufficiently considering the matter. Adrian didn’t shy away from posting that comment accusing him of seeking control. Why? Doesn’t him posting that prove the commenters assertion false? Has Adrian communicated something to us about his heart that might allow us to better see, look at, and value it? Since he posted those comments about him, on his own blog, why do you think you would be in a better position than him to judge the appropriateness of those comments? If he posted them himself, what further defense can you give him? Who will your defense help? Adrian? The anonymous commenters? Yourself? The readers? Who?
From my point of view, Adrian has given us all a great deal of information with which to better see, look at, and value his heart. I hope the anonymous commenters can follow that example, because it’s that example that seems to me is the most charitable and obedient approach possible to repent for precisely what the Lord has been begging us to repent for from the beginning of this covenant journey.
This is just me musing and talking. Feel free to ignore it, it’s probably nonsense. Be free sister.
Jay Todd
So very grateful for all you share, in helping us to grow as we learn more. Thank you. I am so very grateful for the sacrifices you, your family and others make on our behalf. I have watched the videos. I have read the responses. It is clear to me that there is no underlying comparisons going on here. I have read about Nehor many, many times, and for the first time, have really seen the pattern that even now, is happening around us. Thank you, again, Adrian. We all have much to be grateful for...
ReplyDeleteThe wicked flee when no man pursueth , but the righteous are bold as a lion. Proverbs 28:1
ReplyDeleteThis scripture could be applied in multiple ways depending on the lens you are choosing to view this through.
Delete@Chris Van Campen
DeleteHow am I to understand and interpret your refusal to respond to my private emails in the context of this scripture you’ve shared? Are you calling yourself wicked?
Jay Todd
I have no emails from you. Feel free to use chris@mismi.group.
DeleteWell doesn’t that just explain it! WTF email address did I have?!? Cvc@karmidible.com? I thought we had emailed before on that one. Well this is great news! Now I can forward a few emails from the last couple years and we can get to work!
Delete“But those who didn’t belong to God’s congregation began to persecute those who belonged to it and had taken upon themselves the name of Christ. They abused, harassed, and insulted them, knowing their humility. Members of the congregation were neither proud nor viewed themselves as superior. They shared God’s word with each other freely, without money or cost. There was a strict law among congregation members prohibiting persecution of those who didn’t belong to the congregation, as well as persecuting one another. Nevertheless, there were many who were proud and who got into heated arguments over disagreements, even sometimes getting into fistfights (CoC Alma 1:5).”
ReplyDeleteHarass definition:
Harass means to subject a person to persistent, unwanted, and unwelcome behavior – such as verbal, physical, or visual actions – that causes them annoyance, alarm, intimidation, humiliation, or distress. It involves repetitive, hostile conduct designed to bother or torment someone, often creating a hostile environment.
Insult definition:
To speak to or treat with disrespect or scornful abuse.
The members of the congregation did not view themselves as superior, so did they view themselves as equal? If they did, was their room for jealousy amongst them? Was there jealousy or envy towards another person?
Jealousy definition:
Feeling or showing envy of someone or their achievements and advantages.
Envy definition:
a feeling of discontented or resentful longing aroused by someone else's possessions, qualities, or luck.
The congregation shared God’s word with each other freely. Again, they were all equals. To entertain feelings of jealousy or envy over another’s discourse regarding God’s word would have defeated the purpose of studying God’s word. Who teaches from the scriptures should matter significantly less than what is taught from the scriptures. Condemning or accepting the individual is not a factor in the litmus test for each principle taught. It is simply measuring the teachings against the scriptures.
This one excerpt from Denver is a perfect mousetrap within itself:
“Even if the discussion becomes loud and lively, we need to engage with one another. As we do, keep in mind that words are not violence. Yelling is not violence. Cursing and using obscenities is not violence (The Perfect Mousetrap, Pg. 22).”
Violence definition:
The use of physical force, so as to injure, abuse, damage, or destroy.
Words, and the oral delivery of those words, is not violence, that is true. However, words still injure, abuse, damage, destroy. Violence simply defines this being delivered physically. The scriptures consistently and persistently warn against a myriad of poor behavior that is not violance and is still not conducive to a people of God.
“But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. Against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the spirit, let us also walk in the spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another (Galations 1:22).”
Temperance is the quality of moderation or self-restraint. It is self-control, which could include measuring one’s words before saying them. In Strong’s Concordance, gentleness is the spirit-produced goodness which meets the need and avoids human harshness (cruelty). We know from the Covenant that the Lord does care that we measure our words before speaking them.
“Yet among you are those who continue to scheme, backbite, contend, accuse, and forsake my words to do them, even while you seek to recover them. Can you not see that your works fall short of the beliefs you profess? Be of one heart, and regard one another with charity. Measure your words before giving voice to them, and consider the hearts of others. Although a man may err in understanding concerning many things, yet he can view his brother with charity and come unto me, and through me he can with patience overcome the world.”
Thank you. This reminds me that God’s people need to be harmless. 🙏🏼
DeleteOutstanding message Adrian, thank you! We are watching and preparing for the near future here in our nation. What has been shall be.
ReplyDeleteImagine that, two witnesses willingly laboring alongside each other to preach repentance.
ReplyDeleteSolid work, Alma and Amulek. If only Peter and Paul had your record to learn from.
Looking forward to the next part in this series. Can't wait to see what happens next.
Chris Park
Is this intended as sarcasm? If so that’s unfortunate especially in the context of some of these other foolish comments.
DeleteFirst, who are you?
DeleteSecond, no. While said in jest, it's intended to provoke two idiot friends of mine to reflect on what might bring them together rather than what separates them.
Third, who are you?
First, it shouldn't matter who I am.
DeleteSecond, the mistake you make is to imply, even in jest, that both of your "friends" are "idiots." Was Alma an idiot because he couldn't get along with Korihor? Was Alma an idiot when he rebuked Coriantan? Only one of your friends is an actual idiot in the case you're referring to.
Third, I intentionally don't put my name here because that only adds to the drama and incites more unecessary contention. Like you, I love our group. We are the epitome of an imperfect people. I pray we can somehow become better than we are currently.
My biggest concern here is that too many people have taken a seemingly neutral position, yelling from the sidelines for people to "just stop figthing" when discernment should dictate otherwise. One person can truly destroy the peace of a people. Especially when enabled by those who claim to love him.
Some people jump into the conflict.... others step back and start analyzing character development and narrative themes. Chris sounds like he’s reviewing the season so far and waiting for the next episode to drop 😉 Did anyone bring popcorn?
ReplyDeleteI’m enlightened by this exposition and your analysis. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteYou mentioned the secular humanism talk by Korihor. Chauncey Riddle in this 1977 article adds empiricism and relativism to philosophies Korihor taught.
Humanism. “..every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength.”
naturalistic empiricism (the belief that it is possible to know all truth through the senses—by experience and observation)
“ye cannot know of things which ye do not see; therefore ye cannot know that there shall be a Christ.”
Finally, relativism: “… and whatsoever a man did was no crime”.
We need to learn to recognize these doctrines of the devil in the message of lies we are exposed to.
McKay
Thanks, McKay! That adds some new dimensions to Korihor's teachings. The philosophies of men to be sure!
DeleteReferring to part 5.
ReplyDeleteYou’d think it would have been out of sight, out of mind for the remaining Zoramites after giving the boot to those who believed Alma.
But no. They couldn’t stay in Antionum OR Jershon. Their continued existence among the people of Ammon was apparently intolerable. The Zoramites needed them expelled from the planet for the offense of having believed Alma.
The Zoramites’ behavior doesn’t look like confidence in their beliefs. It looks like insecurity. They didn’t just want the believers gone, they needed them to fail. That’s the hatred of the accuser.
It’s a real indicator of the state of the Zoramites’ hearts. Rejection of prophetic warning seems to harden into obsessive hostility toward those who accept it.
Hello Adrian. Your videos on Nehor series and all that you have posted on your blog. This is an answer to my prays as l need the scriptures, Book of Mormon and CoC to be open up to my understanding, so that l can read my scriptures also marking important verses. I am a mature sister, no one else in my family are Christian or even believe in a God. I was baptism into the LDS church in England as a married woman and l have always sat on the fringe. Just attending church on Sundays. I stopped going to LDS church as l had been very unhappy and unfulfilled and confuse with the Church teachings. I have continue to pray to our Heavenly Father to never let me deceived, l am ashamed to say l am not well read in the scriptures and l struggle with comprehension of the language of the King James Bible.
ReplyDeleteI really welcome the RE Scriptures and teachers and messengers who l feel are inspired to further the Lords work and you include are reaching out with the knowledge light and truth and warnings to people who are thirsting to try to learn how to live their lives and all the pitfalls which surrounds us daily. Please listen to the Lord as what you are doing is feeding his sheep and my eyes are seeing truths my hard heart is being soften and l recognise the evil in our daily lives . I hope and pray that you understand the good work you are doing for the Lord.
Thank you for this comment. If anything here is pointing you to our Lord and understanding His purposes, then I count it a privilege to be involved. God's words are a light in darkness and water in the desert, and we all need to internalize them and value them to a greater degree. Thank you for your reminder of this important truth. God bless you, whoever you are.
DeleteIt is worth noting the fine line differences between actual prophecy and man’s opinions. Adrian’s blog make references to prophecy, but also contain his personal assumptions, opinions and views of what he thinks they mean. This fine line difference between actual prophecy and opinion is where individual decisions in how you choose to respond can make or break you. If you accept Gods prophecy, but reject man’s interpretations, God will not be angry at you for that. But if you can’t defend principles or truth and defend a message based on the man, this is where the underlying difference/division comes in. Believing only because of the man, but lacking the understanding and spirit of conversion will damn you every time. How many individuals have made comments in this thread and defended or believed because of Adrian, but never declared or defended just based on truth? This is one reason many discussions are lopsided and imbalanced from the beginning. If it is really not about the man, then why give thanks to the man (all while claiming that is not what your meaning or doing)? In reality it is a cloaked form of idol worship. How many worship Denver or Adrian, while never receiving confirmation from the Holy Ghost as to what’s true for themselves. Once you receive the spirit, it is about having discussions about principles, not the men. It appears to be a slight difference, but is an important one. In the New Testament they refer to it as some being of Paul or Apollos. But why be of one man or another? Salvation cannot be had this way. Hopefully in the future we can have discussions not centered on man or men, but on truth. Until we can we are only carnal and take milk, but are not of age to eat any meat and stand for truth (1 Corinthians 1:9). Until we rise above this petty debate of following men and living carnally, discussion is near impossible. Joseph Smith spoke prophetically and said it this way:
ReplyDeleteAs the stars are all different in lustre and size,
So the telestial region, is mingled in bliss;
From least unto greatest, and greatest to least,
The reward is exactly as promis’d in this.
70. These are they that came out for Apollos and Paul;
For Cephas and Jesus, in all kinds of hope;45
For Enoch and Moses, and Peter, and John;
For Luther and Calvin, and even the Pope.
71. For they never received the gospel of Christ,
Nor the prophetic spirit that came from the Lord;
Nor the covenant neither, which Jacob once had;
They went their own way, and they have their reward.
It should never be about the man but about the message being declared. If the message has weaknesses or holes in it, then those should be exposed and discussed, irregardless of who the messenger is. Unfortunately this is not how this discussion thread has been going overall.
Thank you for saying this, Daniel. The focus on principles and personal confirmation instead of personalities is refreshing and rare in discussions like this.
DeleteI really did want to listen through the whole series with an open mind and discern what truth I could, but at some point it started to feel like there were too many opinions of men mixed in with the scriptures and interpretations being shaped to fit a narrative already in mind. I didn’t even have the heart to finish the series because of that. It just made me sad.
Kim Barlow
Agreed. It is sad to see the unrighteousness dominion, manipulation and control that is manifest throughout this.
DeleteThank you, Daniel. It was refreshing reading your comment which focuses on higher thinning and way of communication to unify thought. When discussion is on blame and shame of people, it is a lower vibration. Higher vibration comes from discussing new abs enlightening ideas.
DeleteJust seeing that wonderful comment of the woman in England and how this series has strengthened her understanding, made me so glad! It also made me sad to see the comments that stayed so far from the internet if this post that could cause some to not even watch and learn because of the infighting seemingly taking place.
Maybe conversations may be best had in a private conversation for greater understanding to clear up any assumptions?
Hey Everyone, a couple of reminders.
ReplyDeleteFirst, thanks to all who have commented here. I appreciate the engagement and the mirror held up to me to help me improve.
Some may not be aware of how comments work on my end. I can't edit them (so don't ask) and I can't respond to them privately, or indeed at all. The only options on my end are post or don't post. Naturally I can respond publicly if I first post a comment publicly, but some have requested conversations that should be private, but have done so through comments. In a case like that, there's literally nothing I can do. I can't respond.
If you're trying to have a private conversation with me, use the "Contact Me" tool on the right side of the blog (in the web version). If you're on a phone, scroll to the bottom and hit "View Web Version" and then you'll see the "Contact Me" tool on the right side. Messages to me through that tool result in a private email exchange.
Second, I have stated previously that I will not post comments with references to living people. Apparently I need to add some clarification. I think it should be obvious to all that the point of coming to a blog and commenting is to engage with the blog author’s opinion. Obviously there are and will be references to me personally, both positive and negative. I don’t consider those off limits because I’m responsible for the material presented in my posts.
I mean for every one of my comments to be posted.
DeleteYour actions are speaking for you, and i’m sharpening the skill of reading between the lines here. It sounds like you won’t have this conversation with me on your public blog because, as you said, “there’s nothing you can do.” (uhhg face slap) You absolutely can! You can post the comment publicly and respond publicly, just like you said.
You’ve got hundreds of people you reach through your blog; this is no joking matter, especially considering how plainly you are setting the stage in your videos. This needs to be public. No more hiding behind the curtain of scripture.
I know it can be hard and uncomfortable to be transparent, i have compassion for that. However this is a public issue that needs to stay public.
Hi Savannah, I don’t know you, but I’ve read all of your comments on this post. I’ve also watched the videos to see if your claims have any validity. You have provided zero specific evidence of your claims. The videos have no evidence of secret or hidden allusions to specific community members as you seem to insist are present. As an observer it looks like you’ve got a vendetta. Your comments are fairly ridiculous and do not contribute whatsoever to the topic being discussed. Do better. No one is impressed by your subjective reading between the lines skill you say you are sharpening. Just read what’s actually there, it’s much more productive.
DeleteSavannah,
DeleteI’m really not a big fan of Taylor wards comment here to you, even if I did agree with it at the core. It feels like it will do nothing but further divide. It lacks wisdom, something I always see in common with people who say “do better”, like any of us know how to “do better” than any other of us!
I’d like to try and respond to your comment here in a different manner, but unlike Taylor, I’m not saying I know how to “do better”. I’m just offering suggestions and thoughts. No control here. I’m not asking you to “do better”. I acknowledge I need to do better as much as anyone.
How do you know Adrian isn’t primarily doing this series because he is so concerned about the Nehor patterns so HE doesn’t fall into them? He actually fairly implicitly did admit this in a couple places. How can you suppose to KNOW that he isn’t doing this for THAT reason?
Like Taylor did with you in supposing to see what’s in your heart, I’m not so sure you should do that to Adrian here. It seems like with the Lord’s rebuke that “many” of us “do not see, look at, nor value what I, the Lord love in the hearts of my people”, we should probably error on the side of accepting each others hearts are BETTER than we think they might be, not WORSE. And this would apply to all of us, even Adrian (and I have a feeling he would have no problem accepting that). I simply can’t find any evidence in anything I’ve read or listened to on THIS particular series that tells me Adrian is talking about any specific individual any more than he is talking about himself. The warning feels universal and feels like a warning from the Lord to me. After all, he is just expounding the covenant of Christ and an authentic messenger is just as accountable for the message
/warning they are delivering as any one else. We’ve had a really good example of this truth this entire time, with a servant and teacher who has repeatedly refused to be greater than any other.
God bless.
Jay Todd
Okay Taylor, let’s just take a moment to acknowledge that Adrian still hasn’t answered yes or no to my original question and assumption, therefore discouraging any further questions and assumptions.
DeleteTo be clear, I've stated my assumptions and connections and asked for transparency in return..... even as simple as a *yes or no*.
I don’t know how much context you’re actually aware of regarding this topic, so I’m sure I seem ridiculous to you.
I *will* be laying out my issues with Adrian’s videos, but understand that this comment you’re responding to comes after a couple unposted comments of mine. So you don’t have the full context, and Adrian is controlling the narrative here.
And to respond to you, Jay: I’m sure Adrian is putting these videos out because he’s genuinely concerned about the patterns of Nehor and wants to avoid falling into them himself. My concern is about how he sets the stage in his videos to show that concern. I’m not claiming to know what’s in Adrian’s heart; I’m saying I have a complaint with his Desolation of Nehor videos, and I’m putting my assumptions and connections out there so they can be worked through.
Thank you for this clarification Savannah. Much appreciated. In my opinion you do a really great job of clearly stating your assumptions and connections as an equal. Grateful to be laboring alongside you.
DeleteJay Todd
Okay Savannah, let's also acknowledge that healthy boundaries ≠ Adrian controlling the narrative. Consider that to others, you come across as the one trying to alter or insist the Nehor series is not what the words actually say, but is in fact all about your context. What with all the rants, demands, and bitching here in the comment section. That could have been a private conversation with the author about your personal assumptions.
DeleteYou are the second-highest commenter (only behind Jay in terms of word count). Your context sounds like a hot mess express. Looks like Adrian decided correctly on the boundaries he's set. I stand by my earlier comment. Your position looks more ridiculous as the video installments continue.
Speaking to Jay. Let's agree we are not fans of each other's comments. I'm subjected to far more of yours than you are of mine. You have a lot of opinions. I've politely avoided you and forums where you are present because you sometimes dominate them, and it often detracts until I no longer enjoy participating. Holding that feeling back hasn't been helpful to either of us, so I thought I'd try being honest and offer, for your consideration, that perhaps you overshare your take on things way too often.
Taylor,
DeleteI have no idea what you’re talking about. Your words addressing me (this is the first time I’ve ever addressed you and don’t even know who you are) would have made equal sense if you’d written them in Chinese. Ive made what, 3 comments on just this post out of over 80? I’m the second highest commenter?! Fascinating…
You’ve never been subjected to my comments even one time (before this one), because I’ve never addressed you until now. Eve if they were address to you, you could always ignore them. So you’re “subjecting” yourself to comments not even involving you. Doesn’t see that fun and I’d suggest maybe to stop doing that?
And yea that’s all I got…I haven’t the faintest idea what you’re talking about. With anything you said to me. You went after Savannah pretty good for making zero sense yourself.
Jay Todd
Taylor,
DeleteForgot to include: Thank you for being honest! I appreciate that. We need more of it, so in my view you are providing a positive example of being honest, even if it’s totally
nonsensical.
I’ve considered your take and am persuaded by the Lords counsel to align my words with my hearts. You’ve failed to coerce me. Sorry.
I sincerely apologize if I gave you the misimpression that I care even a tiny bit that you are a “fan” of my comments not even addressed to you. If it helps, I don’t think you should care that I’m not a fan of only that one comment of yours I addressed and you owed me no response. In fact, at this moment I disagree that your holding back wasn’t helpful to either of us, because you don’t speak for me believe it or not. Based on this first interaction we’ve ever had, it actually was tremendously helpful to me and please feel free to keep being helpful to me. But for some reason I’m not getting warm fuzzies that “helping” me has been the intent behind this bottled up stuff you’ve clearly had for I have no idea how long. Since that’s never been your intent with “holding back”, I wouldn’t doubt another honest response is coming my way. But hey we are supposed to reason right? So maybe something good will happen?
I mostly wrote this second comment just to make what you said about me being the second highest commenter the truth.
Did I hit the mark yet?
Jay Todd
Submitted with revisions to meet requirements for publication (specific comments or inquiries can be sent to mypreoccupations@gmail.com):
ReplyDeleteThanks Adrian, I'm now through the first three and they're very well done. Thanks for taking the time to do this.
This situation with the Amlicites seems to have painfully clear possible application to some hypothetical future series of events involving one that I’ll call The Saved One and an ideology that germinated and sprang up around The Saved One that I’ll call Greatism. In this future hypothetical series of events that I’ll now refer to in the past tense, a fair election was held at the end of an initial tenure as leader in which The Saved One lost. Subsequently, certain people loyal to The Saved One and/or Greatism forced entry into one of the seats of power to contest the results of the Fateful Election. When that didn't work, students and devotees of Greatism laid low for a season, crafting a 900+ page manifesto called The Manifesto, and then helped The Saved One back into power. This time, The Saved One didn't make the mistake he had made the first time, appointing people who resisted by resigning, but instead appointed loyalists who would do his bidding no matter how objectionable his actions.
The return to power of The Saved One through this series of events led some to believe that Mormon had included these portions of the Covenant of Christ about Nehorism as a warning about their day. Specifically, some saw these events as signs that the combinations Moroni warned about were now above the people. Now, they who supported The Saved One were in control of the highest seat of power, the seat representing the very face of the nation and the people. When another prominent person who had founded a prominent religio-political organization - and who might be called The Kind One - was killed, enablers of The Saved One did not honor the name and legacy of The Kind One in humility. Instead, they held a great 5-hour memorial service that seemed more like a promotional event for the organization (The Vanguard) and Greatism. Hereby, in a great display of priestcrafts, they trampled the legacy of The Kind One for the profit of Greatism and The Saved One. This mingling of Greatism, The Manifesto, and The Vanguard seemed a watershed moment, when combinations that had formerly only enjoyed peripheral influence, subservient to government, had now gotten above the people.
And by some it was noted that The Saved One - the great figurehead of the nation - had a look more stout than his fellows and a mouth that spoke very great things. This was the culmination, the very pinnacle of the Gentiles being lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations and peoples. Repentance surely would be required of them, a humbling to the dust, if they were to persist on the land as stated in the Covenant of Christ. Otherwise, they would be swept away as the wicked destroyed the wicked.
An important point of clarification about my comment above:
DeleteThe original comment I submitted to Adrian wasn't actually posted, because it referred to individuals still living. I only noticed after I submitted it that Adrian had commented more than once that he would not publish any comments unless they adhered to this restriction. So, I revised it into an allegory of sorts to see if he would publish it. The formal preamble ("Submitted with revisions to meet requirements for publication (specific comments or inquiries can be sent to...") was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but wasn't meant to mock Adrian. I was just being playful. I do respect Adrian and I respect his desire to adhere to certain rules. It seems one or more people are trying to goad him into some admission, but I don't think that's helping.
I suppose I had different reasons for posting a comment here. There's so much strained history within the Covenant Christians that it's now difficult for us to have conversations about the scriptures (like Adrian's commentary on Nehor) without people thinking it must be some veiled statement about one or another group of people. And to be honest, I can't help but wonder if some of the wording and framing that Adrian uses in his posts and videos are influenced by his perspective on what's going on within the Covenant Christians. So, even if he doesn't intend it to be interpreted a certain way, perhaps it still comes across that way. And perhaps that's why there are people who seem to be trying to get an admission from him.
I will say two things unequivocally: (1) I don't have any strong opinion about the "rightness" or "wrongness" of either Adrian or Louis and (2) the allegory as it was originally conceived had no relation at all to either of them.
Who knows, though, maybe the Lord will somehow orchestrate events to show me that what I had originally conceived as a playful allegory about events outside of the Covenant Christians has some specific meaning and significance within the Covenant Christians. But as to that, I'm completely in the dark. The Lord hasn't told me anything about that.
In a nutshell, I'll describe my initial intent with the comment above. I'm something of a Covenant Christian outsider. I haven't been with the Covenant Christians through all of the pain of the last 7 years. I'm repenting of that. But, it has also left me uninfluenced (for the most part) by the rifts that exist and the history behind them. My mind has been on other things for the last 7 years. I couldn't resist doing an experiment as I watched the two sides mounting up again ready for battle because of Adrian's Nehor videos. I thought, what if I just threw in a completely different modern-day example of what Adrian was talking about? I was curious what the reaction might be.
So, it might be a bit underwhelming, but that's my honest to God primary reason for posting what I did. If there's something deeper in it, something that the Lord plans to unfold over the coming months, I'm none the wiser about it. I've never been visited physically by the Lord. I've never seen a vision of Him in Gethsemane. I've never had His voice come to me and give me the specific words of a revelation. But, I treasure what He gives me. He's touched me in various other ways, sometimes quite tangibly in a spiritual sense. He's assured me through indirect means that he values and sees me….
(Revised to hopefully meet requirements for publication)
DeleteAn important point of clarification about my comment above:
The original comment I submitted wasn't actually posted, because it referred to individuals still living. I only noticed after I submitted it that Adrian had commented more than once that he would not publish any comments unless they adhered to this restriction. So, I revised it into an allegory of sorts to see if he would publish it. The formal preamble ("Submitted with revisions to meet requirements for publication (specific comments or inquiries can be sent to...") was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but wasn't meant to mock. I was just being playful. I respect Adrian and I respect his desire to adhere to certain rules. It seems one or more people are trying to goad him into some admission, but I don't think that's helping.
I suppose I had different reasons for posting a comment here. There's so much strained history within the Covenant Christians that it's now difficult for us to have conversations about the scriptures (like this commentary on Nehor) without people thinking it must be some veiled statement about one or another group of people. And to be honest, I can't help but wonder if some of the wording and framing used in posts and videos are influenced by perspectives on what's going on within the Covenant Christians. So, even if someone doesn't intend it to be interpreted a certain way, perhaps it still comes across that way. And perhaps that's why there are people who seem to be trying to get an admission from Adrian.
I will say unequivocally that the "allegory" as it was originally conceived had no relation at all to individuals within the Covenant Christians.
Who knows, though, maybe the Lord will somehow orchestrate events to show me that what I had originally conceived as a playful allegory about events outside of the Covenant Christians has some specific meaning and significance within the Covenant Christians. But as to that, I'm completely in the dark. The Lord hasn't told me anything about that.
In a nutshell, I'll describe my initial intent with the comment above. I'm something of a Covenant Christian outsider. I haven't been with the Covenant Christians through all of the pain of the last 7 years. I'm repenting of that. But, it has also left me uninfluenced (for the most part) by the rifts that exist and the history behind them. My mind has been on other things for the last 7 years. I couldn't resist doing an experiment as I watched the two sides mounting up again ready for battle because of these Nehor videos. I thought, what if I just threw in a completely different modern-day example that possibly fits in with events surrounding Nehor and Amlici? I was curious what people's thoughts might be.
So, it might be a bit underwhelming, but that's my honest to God primary reason for posting what I did. If there's something deeper in it, something that the Lord plans to unfold over the coming months, I'm none the wiser about it. I've never been visited physically by the Lord. I've never seen a vision of Him in Gethsemane. I've never had His voice come to me and give me the specific words of a revelation. But, I treasure what He gives me. He's touched me in various other ways, sometimes quite tangibly in a spiritual sense. He's assured me through indirect means that he values and sees me....
Adrian, THANK YOU for this timely series on the mind virus called Nehorism. Since some of us believe in cycles and patterns and "what has been shall be" you have used the Covenant of Christ masterfully to give us a glimpse of our USA future. This will divide many families and marriages. Many will opt out of the Congregation over Nehorism's principles and a fatal dose of spiritual pride. The animosity and accusatory comments towards you reveal that by their words/works you shall know them.
ReplyDeleteBy their “words” shall you know them? Impressive authority to completely alter the meaning of scripture.
DeleteThat teaching is perfectly at odds with basically the entirety of the Answer to the Prayer for covenant. “Many have intended well though they have spoken poorly”
I’m persuaded by the second source and reject the incomprehensible amount of supposed authority of the first.
Very timely series of posts on Nehorism indeed Adrian! Already coming in clutch!
Jay Todd
Words can absolutely condemn those who speak them.
Delete"Our words will condemn us, our works will condemn us, our thoughts will condemn us, and we can’t be found spotless. In that awful condition, we won’t dare to look up to God. Under such circumstances, we would want to be able to command stones and mountains to fall on us and hide us from His presence." (Alma 9:4 CE.)
We are invited to "Be of one heart, and regard one another with charity. Measure your words before giving voice to them, and consider the hearts of others." (T&C 157:53)
Even the passage Jay quoted above presumes the good intent of those speaking poorly. "many have intended well, although they have spoken poorly. Wisdom counsels mankind to align their words with their hearts, but mankind refuses to take counsel from Wisdom. Nevertheless, there have been sharp disputes between you that should have been avoided." (T&C 157:4-5)
Speaking poorly but from good intent is very different than speaking accusing words in anger with intent to do harm.
“In the work you have performed there are those who have been Satan, accusing one another, wounding hearts, and causing jarring, contention, and strife by their accusations. Rather than loving one another, even among you who desire a good thing, some have dealt unkindly as if they were the opponents, accusers, and adversaries. In this they were wrong.” (T&C 157:9)
We are well advised to carefully consider our words and the intent behind them before speaking/writing them. (Myself included, obviously). It's clear that words alone are enough to destroy the opportunity for Zion.
One additional thoughts on “our words will condemn us”
DeleteIs it possible that smooth and outwardly peaceful and nice words will condemn us if not spoken with an aligned heart?! Is it the words themselves that condemn, or the degree to which those words are lies that condemn us?!?
Perhaps there is more than initially meets the eye to that incredibly POTENTIALLY illuminating scripture from Alma!
I so appreciate this timely series. It has come into perfect alignment with some studies. I have been doing in my life as well as personal life events that have been happening. Denver said more schisms are coming In this group, and I believe it is true as referenced by recent event events in this movement. I am reminded of the scripture that says the word of God is sharper than a double edged sword unto the dividing asunder of the marrow. This is a direct Egyptian reference as they believed that the bones needed to have special care in attention when preparing their people for the journey into the afterlife…… I find it so fascinating to consider that worldwide global and cosmic events are lining up with Great Harvest. It truly is so interesting to see the true colors and natures of things revealing their true form. I pray for the hearts of the people because that’s what matters of course. Which is exactly why I love this series on Nehor because I think it truly is talking about the mind being deceived and the heart going along with it.
ReplyDelete(Part 1)
ReplyDeleteOne of Satan’s most effective traps is convincing people they are victims so they stop focusing on their own repentance.
For generations Americans have not experienced homeland war or desolation like the Nephites did every 5 years or so (as Adrian’s timeline shows), though the Gaddianton-run United States war machine exports war and desolation to nations that resist Gadddianton demands. But genocide and child sacrifice persist even on these shores.
The long absence of widespread domestic destruction since the Civil War (aside from targeted false flags such as 1941 and 2001) does not mean the accuser has changed his pattern. His Nehorian method remains the same: lies to oppose truth and force to control those who resist.
Now the Lord, in His merciful outreach, is offering another opportunity through another servant. The message is simple: Zion is the by-product of righteousness. Yet we are warned that the accuser is setting a clever mousetrap for this people.
One of his most effective tools is victimhood. The CoC reveals this is a key aspect of communication inspired by the accuser designed to divide people and cause anger and contention.
Victimhood is powerful because it shifts our focus away from our own repentance and onto the faults of others. We begin to believe we are victims who may be denied Zion because of what someone else is doing. From there come the heated arguments and divisions.
Those who are educated and articulate can be especially effective with this tool (Jacob 5:1). With persuasive language they can rally support for them, for example, “because of the many wrongs” being done to the group. Victimhood gathers followers and silences dissent.
(Part 2 of 2):
ReplyDeleteYou see this play out with the greatest political deception in modern history. Conspiring wealthy men in positions of power claim to be Jews, the covenant people. Jesus Himself actually calls them out as being the synagogue of Satan, or in other words Gaddiantons. These evil, genocidal, sociopathic men go around, seemingly having one trick: claiming victimhood by yelling “anti-Semite” to deal with differing opinions. It works beautifully. It buys them sympathy from those who don't perceive the ravenous wolf in sheep's clothing.
The distraction is the genius. The issue is not who claims victimhood or who assumes to be the protector of victims, it has nothing to do with victimhood—that’s the mousetrap. The issue is who is repenting and faithfully keeping the Lord’s commandments.
The scriptures show the pattern clearly. Sherem claimed to protect the people by accusing Jacob of misleading them. Nehor and Korihor portrayed the people as victims of religious control and rejected accountability. Correction was framed as oppression, and many supporters loved the lie. The priests of Noah likewise accused Abinadi of harming the king, portraying the king as the victim rather than accepting the prophet’s call to repent. An entire nation of Lamanites hated the Nephites because they believed they were victims who had been wronged by Nephi. Yet the record plainly states that Nephi was more faithful in keeping the Lord’s commandments.
This tactic will not disappear because Satan will not disappear.
Adrian, how damaging do you think the tactic of victimhood is, and how can this people learn to recognize and respond to it wisely?
Joe Alexander
Nailed it. Thanks Joe.
DeleteJoe, I appreciate the warning about victimhood narratives because there is a real principle there. Human beings can absolutely shift blame outward and avoid personal repentance. That temptation is real.
DeleteBut I think the conversation becomes dangerous when the idea of “victimhood” is used too broadly.
Recognizing injustice isn't the same thing as embracing a victim identity. If someone claims harm where none occurred, that should be corrected. But if harm actually occurred, dismissing it as “victim mentality” prevents repentance just as effectively as self justification does.
Scripture actually shows BOTH errors
Sherem, Nehor and Korihor stirred resentment and accused the faithful. That pattern is 100% accurate.
But scripture also shows the opposite pattern just as clearly.
Abinadi accused the priests of Noah of corruption. Samuel the Lamanite accused Nephite leaders of injustice. Captain Moroni wrote a blistering letter to the government because he believed they had neglected their duty.
In Moroni’s case, his accusation was based on perceived wrongdoing and later he learned the situation was more complicated than he thought. What is remarkable is how Pahoran responded. He didn't accuse Moroni of having a victim mentality. He calmly explained the situation and worked with him to correct the problem.
That exchange shows something important..raising concerns about injustice isn't automatically evidence of deception or victimhood. Sometimes its the beginning of discovering the truth.
Which brings up another thought....
Psychologists (and archetype scholars) point out that every human being carries both a “victim” and a “victor” tendency. The victim response is the part of us that focuses on injury and injustice. The victor response is the part that takes responsibility and moves toward growth and repentance.
NONE of us are immune to either impulse!
Individuals can fall into victim narratives. But groups can also fall into the opposite trap, dismissing legitimate concerns by labeling them as 'victimhood'. Both are human temptations.
The real challenge for us is learning how to distinguish between truthful accountability and manipulative grievance. That requires patience, evidence, humility and a willingness to correct ourselves when more truth becomes clear.
Repentance requires humility before truth. That includes truth about our own conduct as individuals and as communities.
If we treat every concern about injustice as “victimhood” we risk creating a culture where wrongdoing can never be addressed. But if we define ourselves primarily by grievance, we lose sight of repentance as well.
Both traps exist. The real work is learning how to recognize them without assuming from the start which one we are looking at.
Incredible post Barlow’s…That will likely be ignored by this audience.
DeleteAs objective evidence of not simply the truth of what you have said, but of the fact this yet another perfect mousetrap exists in this body, at this very moment, in this very place, I made a comment here days ago dragging this particular mousetrap into broad daylight, and it looks like it isn’t going to be posted, despite breaking none of the heretofore rules of identifying any real living INDIVIDUALS, which it did not do.
Therefore, it is likely this comment will not be posted either (as this breaks none of the rules either) and will probably be seen by only a single individual. I’d caution you silencing specific individuals (me in this case) against YOUR OWN rules. I hold you guiltless either way, but I’m not the judge who holds you accountable. So please take great care and thought in not posting either this, or my previous comment.
I think it’s letting me post with my name finally (it didn’t when I’ve tried in the past), but in case it doesn’t, I’ll sign my name until I have proof it’s working and posting my name without me having to type it.
Jay Todd
Hi Jay,
DeleteI had an extremely busy weekend and was unable to even look at email until this morning, when I encountered an inbox with over 200 emails to deal with. As I worked through them, I encountered your post and published it immediately. I'm sorry I can't always get to everything as fast as people might prefer. I invite you to be patient with me and not assume the worst, my friend. Thanks for your comments!
Kim, you’re right that scripture shows both realities. Human beings can avoid repentance by shifting blame outward, but real injustice can also exist and should be addressed.
DeleteProphets like Abinadi, Samuel the Lamanite, and even Captain Moroni did call out wrongdoing. Recognizing sin or injustice is not the same thing as adopting a victim identity.
The distinction I’m trying to highlight is this: prophets call out wrongdoing while still calling everyone to repentance—including themselves. They do not organize people around grievance or identity as victims. The focus remains repentance and obedience to God.
By contrast, figures like Sherem, Nehor, Korihor, Giddianhi (3 Nephi 2:1), Jared and his wicked daughter (Ether 3:15), the entire Lamanite propaganda machine for centuries, and the Jewish Zionists (Gaddiantons) today, center their message on the people being wronged or oppressed, which shifts attention away from repentance and toward blame.
So I agree both errors exist. Real wrongdoing should not be ignored. But the scriptural pattern I’m pointing to is that truthful correction still leads people toward repentance, while manipulative grievance leads people away from it.
The question isn’t whether injustice exists. The question is what direction the message moves the heart—toward repentance and reconciliation with God, or toward blame and division.
Where the victim identity tactic becomes weaponized is when someone claiming harm is actually sincerely heard—even extensively—but remains fixed in a victim posture and insists they are not being heard and that injustice continues. At that point the focus shifts away from truth-seeking and repentance and toward sustaining the grievance itself. This often becomes divisive as efforts are made to force one’s judgment on others (as Nehor attempted to do “by the sword”).
That dynamic is antithetical to repentance, because repentance requires humility and a willingness to examine our own standing before God. In this movement violence is readily recognized as evil, but violence is not required for coercion. The same coercive impulse can operate through the claim of victimhood itself.
Repentance turns our eyes toward our own sins, not toward sustaining grievances against others.
Joe Alexander
Adrian!!!
DeleteReally great to hear your (digital) voice!! We’ve really been praying for God to bless you lately. My heart is warm to see it appears He has been doing just that.
I fully accept your invitation to have more patience, and acknowledge that relatively benign chastisement as if from the Lord’s own mouth. It is 100% warranted. I do need more patience. I just saw other comments being approved and assumed. You are right I shouldn’t have done that. You have proven my haste and lack of patience by posting my comments and by this response here.
I’m sincerely grateful to be laboring alongside you and that you are willing to provide me correction when you see it’s needed.
Keep it coming please.
Joe, I think you've made excellent points about victimhood. This topic has been on my mind for the greater part of a year as I've watched this tool weaponized among our people. I considered a multi-part blog series on victimhood, because it's that broad a topic. Not sure yet if I'll approach it that way or in some other way. I will touch on it a bit in upcoming videos in this series, then consider if more is needed. Thanks for bringing this up!
ReplyDeleteThank you Joe for these posts.
ReplyDeleteAdrian, I look forward to a possible series on this.
If I may offer a thought on victimhood. Some people claim " abuse" and being a victim because they are told no when asking for something. Because they didnt get what they wanted, they cry victim.
This can be sometimes seen when boundaries have been set up but the person crying abuse does not want to recognize or abide by the boundaries.
Just thoughts.
Janeen Carter
The best way to know if you’re part of a hierarchy is to determine if some boundaries are more important than others and abusers are allowed to behave as victims while actual victims are not.
DeleteThe “Declaration of the Signees”, published on the website recordersclearinghouse.com in April of 2018, was highly abusive, yet published as a list of those claiming victimhood. Reversing the abuser/victim relationship is perhaps Lucifer’s greatest mousetrap in human history. It was born at the very beginning, with Cain claiming his punishment was “more than he could bear”. Poor Cain! To date, only 2 souls I’m aware of have taken accountability and truly repented to their actual victims for their part in the abuse of that open letter. And yet their names have not been removed from that letter, even though they have publicly asked.
The open letter published after the Layton conference in 2023, was another abusive letter published as if the signees were the exclusive victims of the situation addressed. The signees may indeed have been partially actual victims in the situation, but the open letter was published solely as an accusation of the initial victim of abuse. As far as I know, no accountability has been taken for that event by any of those signees and only continued victimhood has been claimed. Though I have seen accountability for abuse taken on the part of the initial victim. Refusal to fully acknowledge oneself they was an actual victim of an abuse, out of pride, is another highly effective mousetrap. Lucifer has our entire house full of all different shapes and sizes.
So if there is a post or series of posts made to disparage the existence of pretended victimhood among us, it will be disparaging every single person who has signed either of those letters and has not taken accountability nor repented of their abuses. Lucifer will laugh at our bruised fingers and toes if such posts are made in our present state of such incredible abuser/victim inequality.
The only post needed on this topic we already possess. It is addressed to US, and is titled “Monsters”.
This is a fair warning on additional posts by anyone disputing or trying to correct or sidestep “Monsters” in an attempt to convince others that some of us aren’t Monsters.
But this warning isn’t to be implied as trying to stop anyone from doing anything. We are all free and I look forward to any posts on any topic any monster among us chooses to make.
-Monster
I’d like to please add a clarification to my above post. It’s a relatively minor grammar/typo error, but the point being made is extremely important to understand and I want to make sure it was clear what I was saying. I need to proof read my comments here better for minor grammar errors to improve communication clarity. Here is the correction with some additional clarity:
DeleteRefusal to fully acknowledge oneself as an actual victim of abuse out of pride, is another highly effective mousetrap. This one typically snags “tough guys”, is typically rooted in DEEP insecurity, and can be very very effective. It doesn’t matter whether or not the abuse was intended against the prideful person refusing to acknowledge they were hurt or not. Because abusers should be given the opportunity to be clearly made aware of their abuse, so they can make a free will choice to stop and reconcile, or continue with their abuse to show themselves what is in their own hearts. How could abusers possibly and properly reconcile as abusers if victims don’t offer reconciliation as victims?
Herein lies one of Lucifer’s greatest traps. If he can convince an abuser to offer reconciliation as a victim, and the victim to offer reconciliation as the abuser, he has won. And both sides will blindly think reconciliation has been made, when they’ve only been ensnared WORSE THAN BEFORE. And to complicate it even more, it’s very rare that two way interactions have a sole abuser and a sole victim (though it does happen). Typically BOTH parties have parts to play as both abusers and victims. The Barlow’s addressed this very well in an above comment. I add a third witness they were telling the truth. The true process of reasoning together can flesh out in what ways each party played a role as either a victim or abuser in any situation/interaction. This is unspeakably critical to get right.
The eternal and critical importance of these roles can be seen in the account “Gethsemane”. There is a reason that account was required to be given to this generation. This is a LARGE part of why we have that account. Abuse is real. Victims are real. Forgiveness is real. This was the entire purpose of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Only Jesus Christ Himself can heal all.
It’s also possible an individual victim simply doesn’t recognize they have been abused because they don’t yet know what their own boundaries are (failing to possess the capacity to protect their own personal circle). This is a lower level mousetrap than knowing one has been hurt and refusing to acknowledge it out of pride/stiffneckedness, but it still exists either way and is still important.
I hope this further clarifies and expounds on these critically important ideas. I’ll try and proof read my comments better.