Monday, May 22, 2017

Individual vs. Group

I received the following email in response to my last post. I thought it was worth putting here, along with my response. 
You said, "Once a people rightfully possess a land by covenant, if they continue to obey God, they can build a temple through which they can reconnect with the divine, and in which God can restore the fulness of the priesthood (D&C 124:28). As the people become sanctified, the land to which they are connected also becomes sanctified (D&C 124:44), and the earth ceases to mourn for the wickedness on her face (Moses 7:48). This is the beginning of how “the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.” (Article of Faith 10)" 
Adam, Enoch, Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Lehi, Nephi, Jacob, King Benjamin, Alma., Alma the Younger, Captain Moroni, Helaman, Mormon and Moroni, John the Baptist, Jesus, Peter, Paul and Mary, Joseph Smith and others [Denver's claim],all obtained their last comforter without a brick and mortar temple and "corrected" scriptures. What if these things are becoming a huge distraction and lead to the "train reck dream" so carefully laid out by Denver in his Boise talk last year? He said himself he gets it wrong every time, that his compass points "south," and the Lord has to correct him all the time.  
Why does Joseph have to a failure in order for Denver to perform his ministry?
Here’s my response:

It is an error to confuse individual redemption with the establishment of Zion. The Lord can, has, and does redeem individuals on a one-on-one basis, and has done so throughout history. But such individual redemption cannot, has not, and does not bring Zion. The establishment of Zion is always a group endeavor, requiring group cooperation and the subjugation of individual interests in favor of the group.

The council, or family in heaven, is a group. It is not a bunch of redeemed individuals singly and separately working on their individual goals and purposes. The city of Enoch is a group, and they will return when there is a group here with whom they can associate, and upon whose necks they can fall when they return (Moses 7:63). Zion will be a city and society where the Lord can come and dwell (Moses 7:64), not an individual endeavor that saves one and excludes all others.

God’s purposes include gathering his family together to function as a society. This will require an accurate body of scripture and a temple to which the Lord can come and provide to the group what can only be obtained from Him personally (D&C 124:28). Then, it will require those so gathered to participate in gathering others (3 Nephi 21:24).

The saints of Joseph’s day failed to receive what God offered. This does not make Joseph Smith a failure. The fact that Joseph’s ministry was required (including his labors to correct scripture and build a temple) highlights the fact that prior dispensations ended in apostasy, and a restoration was therefore required—just as it is today.

Though Denver certainly gets things wrong and has to be corrected, he does not stand and publicly teach things in the name of Jesus Christ unless he has received them from Christ and knows them to be correct. He takes that responsibility very seriously, as should we all. Why assume he was right about the Second Comforter and the train wreck dream, but wrong about the scriptures and the temple? Such an approach appears to be based on the idea that he’s only correct when he agrees with you.

I believe the current efforts to obtain accurate scriptures, a covenant with God, and a temple all agree with scripture and God’s will. He has confirmed these things to me. It is a mistake to use the true principle of the Second Comforter to oppose the true principle of Zion. The two are not at odds.


  1. This is interesting on several counts. The grouping of several different 'experiences' being made to seem necessary as such a 'complete' group, when the scriptures do not teach or demonstrate any such thing.

    Let me clarify. Zion, Land of promise, covenant, community, prophet. In the scriptures you will find that there is no community for most the prophets. Moses had a community that was definitely not zion nor did they have land for 40 years.

    Lehi had family, but not community. He didn't have zion and he just barely lived long enough to get to the promised land before he died. His family divided and fought each other for the duration.

    Enoch was one who managed to create zion after 300 years. Covenants... wow.. covenants.. You need to study up on that one. You have it all wrong. The same covenant given to Adam is upon all humanity until the end. The covenant of Moses was up until Christ and yet it continues as well. The Davidic covenant was fulfilled in Jesus Christ... and Christ is the one to reign upon that throne forever.
    I really worry about you guys.

    1. Hi Sandra,

      Though the Lord's work, and therefore what he offers remains consistent in all ages, it is very rare that people are willing to repent and receive what is offered. As you point out, nearly all prophets have failed to convince sufficient numbers to repent that Zion could be established. Even the Savior's mortal ministry ended in apostasy. This is not a failing of the prophets the Lord sends; this is a failing of the people.

      The Lord is making the offer again in our day. Chances of failure are quite high. It is up to us to repent and receive.

      Of course, those who think they already know all they need to, or who think they have sufficient reason to reject what the Lord offers, will always do so. Some things never change.

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  3. It is true that "there is no community for most of the prophets." Does that mean that we should reject the Lord's offer to live in a community now? I think living in a community where the Lord lives among us sounds even better than receiving the second comforter, being in the Lord's presence for a short time, and then living out our lives WITHOUT His constant presence. (Although seeking the Lord now and desiring to receiving the second comforter is of course something we should be striving for.) If the Lord is offering His continual presence amidst a people now, then why reject it? Does living in a community where all know the Lord sound bad? I'm just trying to understand the negative side to the Lord's proposal.

    The terms of the covenant offered throughout history seemingly have the same components. Adam, received the promise of God, that his posterity should be the chosen of the Lord, and that they should be preserved unto the end of the earth. (D&C 107:42, RE Genesis 3) Noah was given the same promises as was Abraham. (Genesis 9, 2 Ne 29:14, 3 Ne 20:25,27) The terms of the covenant always involve a people who will obey God's commands in all things. (D&C 84:57, JST, Genesis 9:21, 2 Kings 23:3, Deuteronomy 4:13, Alma 46:21 and many others) Undoubtedly, the covenant being offered in September will mirror the previous covenants the Lord has made. I look forward to better knowing and understanding the exact terms of this new covenant. I trust the Lord knows what He is doing. It seems as though the Lord is working in the same pattern he always has and that it aligns beautifully with scripture.

  4. Well, I will say this to all who believe they are doing the Lord's will following Denver Snuffer, I see no worship of Jesus Christ. I see worship of ideals, ideas, men, plans, community, temples... but never a word about Jesus Christ. It is very sad.

    1. Sandra, you will see what you choose to see. Since you cannot look on anyone else's heart, you are left to judge others by whatever outward criteria you choose to look for. Be careful that you don't judge wrongly.

      I would never presume to call into question your devotion to the Lord. I simply don't know your heart.

      Likewise, what you view as "no worship of Jesus Christ" others view as the highest form of worship: "If you love me, keep my commandments."

      Every bit of this effort is focused on not only talking about the Lord (and yes, there is LOTS of that) but also on actually DOING what he asks of us. Or, as He put it, "And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written."

      The effort to repent, remember the new covenant in the form of the Book of Mormon, and the former commandments, is underway. The goal is to be able to accurately say, and also do according to that which is written.

      No amount of talking about Jesus will get anyone anywhere. People have been talking about Jesus for 2000 years, and Zion remains elusive. It is in the DOING what Jesus Christ asks that actual progress can be made.

    2. You appear to have become a tenacious opponent of something you once held dear, Sandra. I had a sense then that you're a genuinely good-hearted person seeking light and truth. May you find what you seek.

  5. Hi Adrian, I hope you are doing well.

    You said,
    "...individual redemption cannot, has not, and does not bring Zion." Do you have any evidence to provide to persuade others of that position?

    You said that "the establishment of Zion is always a group endeavor, requiring group cooperation and the subjugation of individual interests in favor of the group." I agree with the first and last parts of this sentence. What basis do you have for the claim that establishing Zion has
    I would not be comfortable making such a strong claim unless I was intimately familiar with each saved individual listed in the scriptures.

    Years ago, the Spirit prompted me to ask why it was that people like Nephi (Lehi's son) did not achieve Zion in spite of having the same heart as those that did. The only difference was the heart of those around him, in spite of everything he did to help them. How is that reflective of an unchanging God? I asked that to the Lord, and he very pointedly told me that Nephi did in fact obtain Zion, as does everyone like Nephi/Abraham/etc. Every saved person obtains Zion. They live the law required here, and experience the community of Zion whether with mortals or with the church of the firstborn. They do so in this life, not just when they die.

    This scripture tells us everything we need to know about what it takes to bring Zion:
    "And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant, which I made unto thy father Enoch; that, when men should keep all my commandments, Zion should again come on the earth, the city of Enoch which I have caught up unto myself." (JST Gen 9:21)

    From this and other of the Lord's words, it is clear that Zion cannot come to a person or group of people who are not already keeping all of God's commandments. When a group does this, the city of Enoch will come to them. When an individual does this, he will go to them (e.g. have communion with them and abide with them and God).

    An individual can certainly subjugate his own interests for that of others, whether that is reciprocated or not. In fact, it is a requirement of the gospel, and among the first principles of it. One cannot receive the baptism of fire without fully subjecting oneself to God, and one of the most basic commandments is to love your neighbor as yourself.

    One who cannot live all of God's commandments on their own is as likely to be able to do so in a group as one who cannot keep weight off as a single person can do so as a married person with children. It is possible, but far harder, to learn to ride without training wheels on a hill than it is on a flat surface.

    All the best.

    1. Good thoughts here Rob.

      I think that this letter to the Editors (written by Joseph, and maybe others?) helps explain why it may be meet/expedient/necessary for a group to come together so that they may learn the laws which govern the society of heaven.


    2. Hi Rob,

      Regarding my statement that "...individual redemption cannot, has not, and does not bring Zion."

      I'm relying on the Lord's definition of Zion:

      And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them. (Moses 7:18)

      Notice that "people," "they," "them" are all plural. You cannot meet the Lord's definition of Zion solely and singly. It is a community--according to the Lord's definition.

      Certainly a redeemed individual may have communion with the General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn. But that does not fulfill the prophecies of a latter-day city to which the Zion of Enoch will descend, and where the Lord will personally dwell.

      We only have scriptural records of two actual Zion communities (three, if you want to count the Nephites.) All the other redeemed individuals in scripture may have obtained personal communion with the holy city, but that is in a different category and does not fulfill the prophecies that must be fulfilled.

      Those who argue that seeking the Lord personally excuses one from the need to accept what the Lord offers to a group are misled. The Lord requires a group for what He intends to do.

      I believe this aligns with your point that there must be a group willing to receive and obey God's commandments before Zion can come.

      The Lord intends to invite us to be part of such a group, but some have already determined to reject the invitation without even understanding it, based on the idea they can personally obtain the same results without a group. I hope they will reconsider as more information becomes available.

    3. Adrian,
      I appreciate your answer, but you've sidestepped my points.

      Moses 7 describes what happens when more than one Zion individual gathers together without those who are not Zion individuals. It does not support your point. It begs the question of how they got to that point. You and others argue that somehow as a group they were able not only to do what they could not do as individuals, but to do it all at once.

      As far as fulfilling prophecy, Enoch's city will come to a location where there are people already keeping all of God's commandments. A group that does not keep all of God's commandments will not qualify.

      Whether God has intended or offered anything or not, it's great to see so many people ready to listen. What remains a mystery is why they continue to ignore the commandments he has revealed why they so anxiously hope and await for him to give more.

      I dont doubt that if more people repented and kept the commandments we have, there would be far fewer chasing after what they hope will be something new, probably because they would realize they already posses everything promised those in Zion, and managed to get it dirct from God without a middleman.

    4. D&C 24 (RE edition) is addressed to those who have been ordained to the high priesthood. An edit made to the original manuscript teaches:

      "Wherefore, do the things which I have commanded you, saith your Redeemer, even the Son Ahman, who prepareth all things before he taketh you, for ye are the church of the Firstborn, and he will take you up in the cloud"

      So, not only can some commune with the the church of the Firstborn, but some are the church of the Firstborn. They can "obtain" Zion, as the Lord said to Rob, without contradicting what Adrian shares above.

      Hebrews 11 and 12 describe this exact idea. Abraham (and others) sought for a heavenly city (the same city that Melchizedek, who was acquainted with Abraham, obtained, as did others who were caught up by angels into the city of Enoch/Zion), but they didn't reach it permanently. They had "no continuing city, but [they sought] one to come." They "received not the promises" in this life.

      In between these two quotes, we find the following passage:

      "For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words, which voice they that heard entreated that the word should not be spoken to them anymore, (for they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart, and so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake,) but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all..."

      They were come unto mount Sion, even though they achieved no heavenly city.


  6. Adrian, I beg to differ... quoting you:"No amount of talking about Jesus will get anyone anywhere. People have been talking about Jesus for 2000 years, and Zion remains elusive. It is in the DOING what Jesus Christ asks that actual progress can be made."

    2 Nephi 25:26

    26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

    Re read all those passages in the Book of Mormon describing Christ's doctrine. Very simple, concise, adding nothing, taking nothing away.

    1. Hi Sandra,

      I don't want to mischaracterize your statement, but it sounds like you're rejecting the need to actually do what Christ asks us to do. I'm sure that's not your intent, so please correct my understanding.

      Obviously, we could both provide numerous scriptures describing the need to actually obey Christ, not just talk about Him.

    2. The Pharisees were going down that path. Keeping all the commandments and statutes ... but they didn't spend time with the more weightier matters. ... But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

  7. We are irresistibly drawn into the covenant of grace by God and are held in that covenant by his power alone.

    1. Sandra,

      I'm not sure which Christian preacher you got that statement from, but it's fraught with misunderstanding. Most of all, it seems to destroy agency, which of course God will not do. Only the adversary will ever propose to destroy the agency of man.

    2. I don't see agency being lost in the blessings of God. Nor do I see agency being lost in recognizing that it is only by the power of God that we have such blessings. King Benjamin said as much.

  8. Anonymous gave a link of Joseph's teachings.. this was in it "... if we have direct revelations given us from heaven, surely, those revelations were never given to be trifled with..."

    Rob chose to share with us his personal revelation on the matter. His revelation was validated by the Spirit to me when I read it.

    So two or three witnesses?

    1. Is number of believers the test of truth? If so, I'm afraid we may all soon have to become Muslim.

  9. Some discourage the effort underway towards Zion by saying, one must ALREADY be perfect in keeping all the commandments and must already "have" their 2nd Comforter to even do the work. We're not Zion yet, but it is being offered. Doing the work to bring Zion IS part of the PROCESS. It will purify those who do the work. They will become the pure in heart.

    It would be a very clever and effective tactic of the adversary to thwart efforts toward Zion by saying you must already be perfect. No one would be able to do the work.

    Don't be discouraged. If you desire to do the work, God will have you. He needs weak things because they rely on Him. In the process, He will make your weak things strong.

    Seek Zion. God will call you Blessed.

    1 Nephi 13:37 "And BLESSED are they who shall SEEK to bring forth my Zion at that day, for they shall have the gift and the power of the Holy Ghost; and if they endure unto the end they shall be lifted up at the last day, and shall be saved in the everlasting kingdom of the Lamb; and whoso shall publish peace, yea, tidings of great joy, how beautiful upon the mountains shall they be."

    "Blessed are they whose feet stand upon the land of Zion, ...they shall also be crowned with blessings from above, yea, and with COMMANDMENTS not a few and with REVELATIONS in their time –they that are faithful and diligent before me.” (D&C 59:3-4)

    WHEN a people are blessed with the coming revelations and these commandments, THEN they will have them ALL, so that they will be able to keep them ALL:

    "... remember the everlasting covenant, which I made unto thy father Enoch; that, WHEN men should keep ALL my commandments, [THEN] Zion [the city of Enoch] should again come on the earth..." (JST Gen 9:21)

    God will fulfill all His prophesies and promises. He will keep His word. Trust His wisdom and His timing. He will bless you by the sacrifice you make in this process. He has said He WILL call those blessed who are: poor in spirit, they that mourn, meek, hunger and thirst after righteousness, merciful, pure in heart, peacemakers, persecuted for righteousness’ sake. Trust Him.

    1. I haven't seen anyone advocating that one must be perfect first before they can work towards a zion society, but if anyone has ever really been born of God, that perfection does actually create zion in the heart of that person. Being one mind and heart with Christ does that.

    2. If you arent already keeping what you have, you wont get anything more. Plain and simple. You cannot seek Zion without your own repentance. As it says in jst gen 9, it is not Zion until those there gathered are sinless. There is no more important way to seek Zion than to reconcile yourself to God by keeping all the commandments of God. This is hardly a tactic of the adversary, to persude men to repent.

    3. Rob, would you elaborate on what people aren't keeping? You seem to be certain that those (or at least a great number) of those who accept Denver as a true messenger, are not keeping what they have already received. In essence you are calling all of those people to repent. Would be mind clarifying what the errors or transgressions or at least the sins of omission are so that they might correct the error? I ask this in all sincerity. Thanks much.

  10. Adrian,

    I can't believe the amount of naysaying and discouragement that I have seen in the comments section of this blog, as well as the blogs of Rock Waterman and Anonymous Bishop these last couple of months.

    I have seen repeated attacks, labeling the effort to recover the scriptures and to receive a covenant from the Lord as amounting to accepting a "covenant with death" or becoming spiritually enslaved to Denver Snuffer in the afterlife or other such nonsense.

    I shouldn't be surprised by the hostility (and the comments have become quite hostile), but I am anyway. I do remember someone recently saying, "There will be departures." Looks like he was right.

  11. Lance,
    I have to agree with you. There's so much negativity surrounding the scripture project, the covenant, the Temple Fund project, and Denver. If people don't believe any of it is of God or from God then leave it alone. It will come to naught if it be of men and of the devil. We all have to figure this out on our own anyway. Gentle persuasion either way is a good idea I believe.

    Thank you Tammy for your comment. We do need to trust God.

    We are never going to be perfect but Christ can perfect us. Does that mean "perfectly" keeping the commandments all the time? I think only Christ did that. But I think it's possible to come awfully close, at least for now. We could learn to be like King Benjamin's people which is how I view the offered covenant.

    My sister pointed out the other day that the words in the 10 commandments don't always necessarily mean what we think. Take "Thou shalt not kill". Does that mean necessarily to actually to take someone's life? Yes and it may also mean one other way. Alma the younger talked about murdering souls when he went around preaching against Christ and the church. So could "not kill" also mean not going around murdering souls? How about "Thou shalt not steal"? One definition of steal is "to withdraw". What if God is telling us not to "steal" from Him or rather to withdraw from Him? We are commanded to come to Him or draw near to Him. Do we do that all the time or are we stealing away from Him? I bet if we were to break down those 10 commandments we would see so much more than the typical word usage of murder, steal, covet, adultery, etc....

    Just some thoughts :)

    1. Moroni 10:32-33 we must be perfect in Christ. This means He is our center focus, our entire focus. He has taught that if we look to him, as the lilies of the field or the birds of the air, He will give us all that we need. It might come in opportunities, it might come as inheritance, it might come as pure revelation day to day. Seek ye first His kingdom and righteousness. HIS... not yours.

  12. It seems like all here are in agreement that we must obey the commandments of God in order to have any potential part in Zion. Also we seem to agree that one must have a covenant with God. The question then is whether the effort of the scripture project is in obedience commandments from God, is receiving the words He has given us, and preserving them.

    If, because of this effort, God is extending a covenant now, this is something we would need to confirm for ourselves. If we do this (recognizing we lack wisdom in this thing, and asking God if He is offering us a covenant and receiving an answer), and receive a confirmation of it, we have then received the offer of a covenant from God for ourselves. It is then our choice to receive it by the conditions He's giving, or not.

    All of this is to say, that if God's hand is truly in it, it is our responsibility to receive it if we desire to receive more, or to reject it if we desire to lose even what we have.

    The truth of that should be sought for as individuals with hearts willing to hear God's will in it, whether or not it is the answer we prefer or currently understand.

  13. There is more going here than just individual redemption, regardless of whether you call that Zion or not. God has made some prophecies that require some Gentiles to repent and do God's will and fulfill those prophecies. God has made a covenant to once again gather Israel.
    3 Nephi 21: 1 And verily I say unto you, I give unto you a sign, that ye may know the time when these things shall be about to take place—that I shall gather in, from their long dispersion, my people, O house of Israel, and shall establish again among them my Zion;
    Zion will be established among them. A group of Gentiles will do this work. Before they do this work, they must come to know the true points of Christ doctrine.
    6 For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel;
    It is a matter of who will do this work for the Lord. Who will reject their personal desires and ambitions and do the Lord's will. There is more than our own selfish desire to be exalted. Christ was one with the Father because he did the will of Father in all things. So it was just like the Father was here on earth. We become like Christ by doing the same thing. This is how we worship Christ.

  14. Hi Adrian, When you said:
    It is an error to confuse individual redemption with the establishment of Zion. The Lord can, has, and does redeem individuals on a one-on-one basis, and has done so throughout history. But such individual redemption cannot, has not, and does not bring Zion. The establishment of Zion is always a group endeavor, requiring group cooperation and the subjugation of individual interests in favor of the group.

    I was just thinking - I thought that Zion would be comprised with people who have already met the Lord, received their calling and election made sure. They meet with Him often and then the angels gather those kind of individuals together. If we all aren't meeting with the Lord, why would He suddenly meet with a whole group? Aren't we as strong as our weakest members?

  15. The scriptures make the case that the angels are the ones who do the gathering.

    "This he spake, signifying the gathering of his saints; and of angels descending and gathering the remainder unto them; the one from the bed, the other from the grinding, and the other from the field, whithersoever he listeth." (JST, Luke 17:38)

    Maybe because time is irrelevant to the Lord, and all things are before him, he knows who will receive Him and who won't. He knows who can be of one heart and one mind. He knows who has received the prophets and has and will become the literal seed of Abraham.

    When Christ addressed, the Nephites (and us) he stated, "And behold, ye are the children of the prophets, (They were the ones saved from the destruction because they had listened to the prophets the Lord had sent) and ye are of the covenant which the Father made with your fathers, saying unto Abraham: And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed."

    The Lord knows who obeys his commands and who can successfully become Zion. He knows who can be of one heart and one mind having, the same mind and will as he does. The Lord knows who to gather, and maybe some will have received His presence before the gathering, and maybe some thereafter, because all things are before the Lord. Maybe it's OK to receive the Lord IN Zion. Maybe this is the correct timing for some. It is the Lord's timetable not ours. We can only repent, obey and seek. I am just trying to do these things and trust Him in His work.

  16. Tausha, your comment really goes against much of what your husband has been saying for months.

  17. I assure you that Adrian and I are on the same page as far as doctrine goes. I quoted third Nephi where Christ states, “ye are the children of the prophets; and ye are of the house of Israel, and ye are of the covenant which the Father made with your fathers, saying unto Abraham: And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.” Because the definition of “children of the prophets” is that one has accepted, believed, and obeyed the Lord’s true messengers then these people would be those counted among “the children of the prophets.” The children of the prophets are the children of Abraham as they accept the covenant and lose their former identity as Gentiles. And because of the covenant, and new identity, these people can then be counted as the seed of Abraham and the earth will be blessed because of them. These former Gentiles will go forth to teach and bring in the scattered remnants of Israel and the whole earth will be blessed because of it.

    Does merely accepting the covenant give us a secure place in Zion? I don’t think so. First, the terms of the covenant must be kept. We must individually obey the terms. The scriptures state that the angels will do the gathering. Will the angels initially gather those who reject the covenant, or who reject the message of true servants? Will the angels gather those who cannot live Zion principles or who would cause Zion to fail? Will the angels gather those who are not of one heart and one mind because they have not the same mind and will as the Lord? I do not believe so.

    If we’ve had the opportunity to receive the servant the Lord has sent, then I believe that we must do so if we hope to be gathered. Seeking to recover and accept the Lord’s word as a covenant, so we may become the Lord’s people, is a necessary step before we can be gathered into a city that will eventally become Zion. Do we have to have already received the Lord’s presence to be gathered? I don’t believe it is a pre-requisite. Some will be gathered who will qualify to receive His presence in Zion after they’ve been prepared.

    I am sorry if I worded my previous comment in a way that makes it seem I think differently or disagree with the things Adrian has already laid out concerning the covenant and Zion. We are of one mind on this issue.