tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post8978665269618100059..comments2024-03-26T14:29:25.921-06:00Comments on To The Remnant: MammonAdrian Larsenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-20438848568944811622020-09-19T00:18:36.357-06:002020-09-19T00:18:36.357-06:00Wow. I find this info disturbing. Wow. I find this info disturbing. BGShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00119277595903654386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-75064679257105083512020-03-03T12:39:24.244-07:002020-03-03T12:39:24.244-07:00Thank you for the scriptural referencesThank you for the scriptural referencesFabiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05360581495516654986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-52195634942693135122020-02-10T09:21:55.351-07:002020-02-10T09:21:55.351-07:00It's nice to see something I agree with you on...It's nice to see something I agree with you on. I had been a devoted "pay on gross" full-tithe payer from the age of seven, through age 38. I would have never questioned paying it, and always thought I was being "blessed".<br /><br />About the time that the City Creek Center was getting ready to open here in Salt Lake, I questioned why the ads being run appeared to be so "upscale". Additionally, they showed women in states of dress that the church supposedly preaches against. And...alcohol. I thought that was a no no as well.<br /><br />Things crumbled pretty quickly after that and I no longer pay tithing to the LDS Church. My wife and I have struggled financially most of our marriage, but keeping that 10% has helped in many an instance when we would have come up short. And, yes, I've been able to help others as well.<br /><br />I'm currently enrolled, with my wife, in the LDS Church's 'self-reliance' course on finances. I'm not looking forward to the lesson this week which is....Tithing and offerings, primarily because I no longer believe and frankly, just do not care about the church's teachings about tithing and offerings. <br /><br />This was a good post. Thanks for sharing it.<br /><br />MKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-64800699870054455392020-02-06T01:02:38.569-07:002020-02-06T01:02:38.569-07:00I believe the stewards of the funds have been wise...<br />I believe the stewards of the funds have been wise. The market has more than doubled in the last several years. If they hadn't invested the complaints would still be that the church has too much money. The 2 billion dollar mall investment has served multiple purposes but shouldn't be looked at differently than any other investment the church has done, as it yields dividends and additional growth that will eventually serve for gospel purposes. <br /><br />Any "mishandling" of funds as you call it, (or losses) is to be expected when investing funds whether actually tithing or the growth of the tithing. Either way, the growth has outperformed the losses, so the complaint should be mute.<br /><br />If you all were around when Joseph was here, you'd be with the group that was attacking him for "mishandling" funds even though there was much more to the story.<br /><br />You don't understand the purposes and so you criticize them.<br /><br />The argument that Russell M. Nelson is arguably, the "richest" man in the world is silly and demonstrates your disdain.<br /><br />I would love to hear how you would help the poor if you had the churches finances. What would you do and how would you do it in the Lord's way?<br /><br />And, since you all have left the church, are you giving a full tithe and are you giving a generous fast to help the poor? If not, start there.<br /><br />Anonymous- <br /><br />"corporation" is thrown around a lot as a mean spirited term. "Things get complicated, however, when you consider that thousands of U.S. corporations are, in fact, religious. They're called churches. As nonprofit “religious corporations” under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, churches enjoy a variety of legal benefits." NewYorker<br /><br />Whether you agree or not, tithing is still a law and there are blessings associated with obeying it. I can't deny that! <br /><br /><br /><br />Remnant of Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12309921111614370730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-38074094211648436192020-02-06T01:02:05.401-07:002020-02-06T01:02:05.401-07:00Adrian, I would not mind having lunch with you. I ...Adrian, I would not mind having lunch with you. I live in Meridian.<br /><br />BTW- this is not painful for me personally. I'm not having a faith crisis. I've been shown things that add light to many of the things you criticize based on your incorrect conclusions on a number of levels. <br /><br />I'm not ignorant and I don't blindly follow. From your perspective you may disagree, but you don't know what I know. I'll leave it at that for now.<br /><br />In order to complete the argument and criticism of church finances and tithing/fast offerings, etc. we need to first agree on what you believe is the Lord's way for taking care of the poor. <br /><br />If you have ever been in a position of regularly serving the poor, (I have) then you'll soon realize that throwing money at the poor is not the answer. Also, when we discuss "poor" we should also qualify what type of poor we are discussing. Extreme poverty, (those without food and water) should be looked at differently than what we traditionally group as "poor" and I agree, they should be helped at all costs. however, "Poor" is a relative term and when helping the poor is done in the wrong way, not the Lord's way, it weakens and destroys and even enslaves them to dependency. As with the welfare system in the United States, people become dependent upon government rather than God. Instead of getting on their knees, they get on the phone. Instead of exercising faith, they forget God and they are robbed of growth due to good intended law makers.<br />"Wo unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grievousness which they have prescribed;<br /><br />2 To turn away the needy from judgment, and to take away the right from the poor of my people, that widows may be their prey, and that they may rob the fatherless!<br /><br />Most of the giving should take place from person to person or family to family so that the hearts can connect and faith can be fostered, not by government or institutions. It's a much more delicate topic than you all seem to make it to be. I'd recommend watching the documentary Poverty, Inc. to shed some light on the good intentions of helping the poor that actually hurt them in the long run.<br /><br />Also, you can argue all you want but it's abundantly clear that the Lord established the Law of the Fast to take care of the poor. If we all fasted regularly, hunger would be eliminated. Tithing is for establishing and growing the church and preaching the gospel. They two purposes should not be mixed.<br /><br />There will come a time in the near future where the funds will be needed to purchase lands and build the New Jerusalem in preparation for the Lord's return. In addition, the gospel has yet to go to the nations in full. I know your views are different on this however, we will see.<br /><br />continued--<br />Remnant of Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12309921111614370730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-58066039269310603992020-02-05T11:47:58.607-07:002020-02-05T11:47:58.607-07:00Remmanant of Joseph if you have no problem with th...Remmanant of Joseph if you have no problem with the church handling finances or mishandling tithes then you need to reconsider your morals. The fact that you have been blessed for paying tithes to a Corporation has nothing to do with their wickedness. You would have been just as blessed if you had given your tithes to any other institution. That is the mistake members make, they associate their perceived blessings with the institution.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-57117204328442174692020-02-03T22:09:34.455-07:002020-02-03T22:09:34.455-07:00Hi Remnant,
Oops, you did it again. Your entire c...Hi Remnant,<br /><br />Oops, you did it again. Your entire comment centers on attacking me, rather than actually addressing the topic of this post. You complain that I don’t post your comments, and then you put out stuff like this that wastes everyone’s time.<br /><br />I’ll point you, again, to the topic of this post and the questions I asked you. The LDS church has become one of the wealthiest corporations on earth, and the President of the LDS church is likely the wealthiest man on earth. Our Lord specifically prohibited this behavior, calling it the opposite of serving God. Ancient prophets saw our day, and the readers of the Book of Mormon, and were appalled by what they saw. They called the holy church of God “polluted.” In my blog I quoted the words of scripture and the words of Christ—and you accuse me of trying to mislead people. <br /><br />Your problem is not with me, and it is not with the LDS Church. It is with the teachings of Christ. I suggest you take up your arguments and accusations with Him.<br /><br />I don’t see any point in continuing to post your off-topic personal attacks. I’m not offended by them, but they waste everyone’s time and do you no credit, particularly when they are wildly off base. <br /><br />As an example, you said: “Here's a question similar to my previous post about taking the gospel to the Jews. What are you doing to alleviate poverty? Why not proactively address that rather than attack the church?”<br /><br />In that previous post about the Jews, I wrote about the LDS Church’s documented efforts to fight against the Father’s Marvelous Work by actively preventing the Book of Mormon from going to the Jewish people. You implied I had no moral authority to write on the topic because I wasn’t doing anything for the Jews either<br /><br />Your accusation about the Jews was incredibly ironic. I’ll point you to this post, which showed up two posts after you made your baseless accusation:<br /><br />https://www.totheremnant.com/2019/10/the-end-part-7-beginning.html<br /><br />Your current question about helping the poor falls into the same category, and scores zero points. You don’t know what you don’t know.<br /><br />Attacking the messenger is a poor alternative to heeding the message. My intent is not to criticize the church for the sake of criticism. There are yet people to save, and I will continue to raise the warning voice whenever I have the opportunity, in hopes of saving some few from the coming judgments. <br /><br />https://www.totheremnant.com/2014/09/finding-fault-or-feeding-faith.html<br /><br />I realize how painful this is for you and for so many others. The words of Christ condemn us all, and confronting our shortcomings is not easy. It takes a great deal of humility to change course when we’re mistaken. I pray you’ll ignore me, and instead open your heart to message of the post. Time is short. <br /><br />PS: Communicating in a comment section sucks. Let's have lunch sometime. I would love to be your friend, even if we don't see eye to eye.Adrian Larsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-9267144830892079682020-02-02T21:33:27.548-07:002020-02-02T21:33:27.548-07:00Hi Adrian,
I'm no a coward. The reason I don...Hi Adrian, <br /><br />I'm no a coward. The reason I don't use my name is because I don't want anyone to search my name and end up reading this blog and fall into the pit dug (targeted) to ensnare the people of the Lord. If you are honest, and your post's first sentence says as much, you are trying to get members to leave the church. That's irrefutable!<br /><br />I've dialogued with some from this blog using my real name.<br /><br />To your point, there are others on this blog who are cowards and dishonest having one foot in and one foot out of the church. Openly attending and pretending even lying and justifying but quietly, secretly fighting against the Church of the Lamb and the Saints. I don't hear you calling them out. The ends justify the means, even in integrity apparently. But I shouldn't bring that up because the leaders of the church aren't honest, right? that was the argument the last time I brought this up. Honestly, that's cognitive dissonance to the definition.<br /><br />You also stated, you've given me "irrefutable evidence". That sounds like the House Impeachment committee, where you silence the opposition, and then claim there is no opposition and all claims are without counter evidence or argument yet, even though you have "irrefutable evidence" you need more.<br /><br />The truth, is the future as you see it and the future as I see it are drastically different. Our interpretations are at times complete opposite. (and yet I do understand where you are coming from or at least the way you interpret it) According to your "view-point" you can't see a reason for what the church is doing and even if you could, it wouldn't matter because you would fight it. <br /><br />Only one of our groups is fighting the Church the Lord setup "the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth".<br /><br />You believe the times of the Gentiles has ended and so you can't comprehend it. You believe the "fulness of the Gentiles" is something different than it actually is, and so you you can't comprehend it. <br /><br />Again, you attack the church and the members (because you don't understand - and because you don't understand, you presume and arrive at your own limited conclusions). <br /><br />Here's a question similar to my previous post about taking the gospel to the Jews. What are you doing to alleviate poverty? Why not proactively address that rather than attack the church?<br /><br />Lastly, I'm curious to why you did remove my comments? do you not feel that you could give the reasoning in your blog? I'd love to hear because from my perspective, you couldn't answer my claims and so you removed them.<br /><br />Perhaps you'll take the time to squash my argument if you really are trying to reach us fools who are still on the path.<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br />Remnant of Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12309921111614370730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-77923336616573665832020-01-31T10:18:48.284-07:002020-01-31T10:18:48.284-07:00FYI to all: Rob Smith's book: "Teaching f...FYI to all: Rob Smith's book: "Teaching for Doctrines the Commandments of Men" has a chapter on tithing which is very well researched and written. I highly recommend it! I just read and highlighted it myself a few weeks ago. You can read it for free here: <br />https://upwardthought.blogspot.com/<br /><br />Jarodious Badgerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03468910553322945602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-14679183201909313812020-01-30T10:02:50.268-07:002020-01-30T10:02:50.268-07:00Not being an officiando, I found a familiar call i...Not being an officiando, I found a familiar call in the profound lyrics you posted, OpenMind, but I had to look them up. Pink Floyd, of course. I especially like "We could find that we're all alone, In the dream of the proud." I wonder what the folks controling the $100 billion dream about. $500 billion? I like Adrian's reference to Smaug from The Hobbit—an unhappy dragon sleeping atop a mountain of gold. Pattynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-32431273012548060812020-01-29T15:51:22.741-07:002020-01-29T15:51:22.741-07:00That other line from DPB also went through my head...That other line from DPB also went through my head!! Funny you mentioned it... <br /><br />Those lyrics you posted did anything but detract. Music is special and powerful. Is it any wonder the Lord, who spent his mortal time with "sinners" has inspired many through music that the religious folk of the world cast aside as worthless sinners? I find a great deal of powerful and sublime truths contained in inspired sung lyrics from unlikely sources. On this particular topic, perhaps the most powerful that comes to my mind after sharing your experience from your mission is this gem from my favorite guitarist/musician of all time:<br /><br />"On the turning away<br />From the pale and downtrodden<br />And the words they say<br />Which we won't understand<br /><br />Don't accept that what's happening<br />Is just a case of others' suffering<br />Or you'll find that you're joining in<br />The turning away<br /><br />It's a sin that somehow<br />Light is changing to shadow<br />And casting it's shroud<br />Over all we have known<br />Unaware how the ranks have grown<br />Driven on by a heart of stone<br />We could find that we're all alone<br />In the dream of the proud"<br /><br />I imagine I don't need to even cite it for you to know this one. Such truth and beauty contained here as well as dire warning. <br /><br />We really should be best friends Patty...OpenMindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13245205813750451843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-61732896783717070642020-01-29T07:25:32.373-07:002020-01-29T07:25:32.373-07:00Glad you liked it, OpenMind. Hopefully it didn'...Glad you liked it, OpenMind. Hopefully it didn't detract from the conversation. Reading the reports of Nelson and company selling tithing to some of the world's most impoverished people took me back to the extreme sights and smells of poverty from my mission in a tropical country. I suddenly started hearing Angus Young's marvlous opening bars of Thunderstruck (which he plays one-handed!) with the inevitable refrain of "thunderstruck". I also like the British word, "gobsmacked" which has a similar meaning. It was like a punch to the gut to realize that the church of my forefathers going back to the first British converts, had quietly, successfully, mutated into Mammon.<br /><br />In connection with the topic at hand, your choice of "Down Payment Blues" is excellent. To your snippet of lyrics we might also add, "I got myself a Cadillac, But I can't afford the gasoline." The rock stars from Australia seem to realize that wealth has costs, demands, and unanticipated consequences. <br /><br />Ensign Peak Advisors is sitting on an almost unimaginably large pile of cash and real estate holdings. And for what? To be more godly and make the world a better place, or to simply grow larger? Lord Acton wrote that "a corporation has neither a body to be kicked, nor a soul to be damned." To that we might add, "A corporation in the business of religion has neither the power to save nor a heart with which to repent and yield to God." May we choose generosity.Pattynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-3069828268314346102020-01-28T21:18:34.201-07:002020-01-28T21:18:34.201-07:00For those who can’t leave the LDS church, at least...For those who can’t leave the LDS church, at least you can stop giving them your money. <br /><br />Give it to the poor instead. Find a single mom, help her, and watch how the churches teachings on tithing takes on enormous clarity as the steaming pile of crap that it has become. <br /><br />100% of your donation goes to the beneficiary when you give it to the beneficiary. Who can’t support that kind of percentage to the poor?Random Personnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-2516173101369088822020-01-28T20:50:52.709-07:002020-01-28T20:50:52.709-07:00great point about Mammongreat point about MammonSteven Retzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02571101461935910318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-77565483610426696612020-01-27T18:12:21.658-07:002020-01-27T18:12:21.658-07:00To me there are two issues here at stake. One is t...To me there are two issues here at stake. One is tithing definition and the other is the use of tithes.<br /><br />The tithing definition as is culturally defined by Latter-day Saints violates the spirit and commandment in the Book of Mormon. Period. To illustrate further, when tithing was implement in Nauvoo in D&C 119, it was meant as an easier law to live than the Law of Consecration.<br /><br />1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,<br /><br />There are two issues here: One is the definition of tithing from an income standpoint, and the second is distribution of tithing and its purpose.<br /><br />The Lord instituted tithing in 1838 as a result of the "failure" consecration as given in D&C 119.<br /><br />1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,<br /><br />2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.<br /><br />3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.<br /><br />4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.<br /><br />5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.<br /><br />6 And I say unto you, if my people observe not this law, to keep it holy, and by this law sanctify the land of Zion unto me, that my statutes and my judgments may be kept thereon, that it may be most holy, behold, verily I say unto you, it shall not be a land of Zion unto you.<br /><br />7 And this shall be an ensample unto all the stakes of Zion. Even so. Amen.<br /><br />Tithing thus required all surplus and THEN a tenth annually of additional surplus each year. Consecration required surplus every year. The poor, understandably, had no surplus. That definition has changed over the years. No one gives all their surplus, but but that could have been a kick-started of sorts at the time.<br /><br />Some of this is archaic to how we define income, but simply put, under Consecration, the poor paid NOTHING, instead they received. Under the implied definition of tithing in 2020, the poor pay a tenth of their income, and forgo food and other living supplies. Indeed, tithing in 2020 is harder and more difficult for the poor than in 1838. I'm concerned that the law has become more difficult for those who are poor, not easier. It's a millstone, and not the mite, that the Lord has honored in the past.<br /><br />Then there is the issue of distributions. It IS intended for the poor as a storehouse according to Malachi, for Zion, according to D&C 119, for the Priesthood (ostensibly for some expenditures, and debts of the Church). So okay, it's not exclusively for the poor.<br /><br />But the Zion portion is easily defined in the sense that Zion IS defined as there being "no poor among them."<br /><br />So if the Lord requires them to save for a rainy day to help build up a Zion and there is a plan, whether they give it today or tomorrow, I'm giving that argument to the Latter-day Saint. Maybe the Lord needs billions of dollars to help the Saints during a cosmic collapse of the system. But I would caution that if it's instead, used to buy up cheaper capital that is distressed in a worldwide economic depression in order to consolidate the Church's position in the world, the Church looks like it is indeed trying to beat Babylon at its game, and that would concern me greatly.Peter Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04116452836358253375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-84400825925503619702020-01-27T11:59:18.951-07:002020-01-27T11:59:18.951-07:00Ok starting off a comment by quoting AC/DC verse.....Ok starting off a comment by quoting AC/DC verse...I think you’re my hero Patty...<br /><br />How about this one:<br /><br />“I know that it’s evil<br />I know that it’s got to be<br />I know I ain’t doing much<br />Doing nothing means a lot to me<br />Living on a shoe string<br />A fifty cent millionaire<br />Open to charity<br />Rock N’ Roller welfare”<br /><br />AC/DC-Down payment blues <br />OpenMindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13245205813750451843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-42247969085497242582020-01-26T22:28:18.958-07:002020-01-26T22:28:18.958-07:00I was thinking about Smaug, the dragon from The Ho...I was thinking about Smaug, the dragon from The Hobbit who sits on a massive hoard of gold, and I just came across this quote from Peter Jackson, of all places, in the Deseret News: <br /><br />"Smaug is a paranoid psychopath. He has a lust for gold, but it’s a lust that he can’t explain. He’s not like a normal person who wants wealth for all the trappings of fast cars and yachts. Smaug doesn’t have any of that, the poor guy. For 200 years, he’s been there on this pile of gold waiting for someone to come." – Peter Jackson<br /><br />Here's the link: <br />https://www.deseret.com/2013/12/13/20531418/tolkien-s-dragon-why-smaug-is-the-greatest-of-the-dragons-of-his-day#martin-freeman-as-bilbo-in-the-fantasy-adventure-the-hobbit-the-desolation-of-smaug-a-production-of-new-line-cinema-and-metro-goldwyn-mayer-pictures-released-by-warner-bros-pictures-and-mgm<br /><br />As Tolkien explained it, the name Smaug derives from the “past tense of the primitive German verb smugan, to squeeze through a hole” — “a low philological jest,” according to Tolkien, likely referencing the New Testament verse about rich men and needles.Adrian Larsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-13952118656908922822020-01-26T21:41:29.844-07:002020-01-26T21:41:29.844-07:00Wow. A more scathing rebuke of an organization, I...Wow. A more scathing rebuke of an organization, I have never read. Nicely done, Adrian.Taggarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02539466406079984139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-57434299112584332382020-01-26T17:35:19.087-07:002020-01-26T17:35:19.087-07:00Perhaps Anonymous could fill us in a bit more. I u...Perhaps Anonymous could fill us in a bit more. I understand that the (former) Corporation of the Presiding Bishop and the Corporation of the President are two separate corporations. When you add in all of the for profit "Reserves" operating, the business complexities and wealth are truly staggering.Sandrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06541025403997783245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-45733355361115474802020-01-26T14:47:05.495-07:002020-01-26T14:47:05.495-07:00Remnant,
Your comment is a perfect illustration o...Remnant,<br /><br />Your comment is a perfect illustration of the principle of cognitive dissonance. <br /><br />It’s human nature that we all find it extremely uncomfortable to be wrong, especially on important questions. Therefore, when presented with clear, even irrefutable evidence that a held opinion is wrong, the immediate, even unconscious, human tendency is to instantly invent a new narrative, no matter how irrational, to explain how the initial idea held is actually right, even when clearly wrong.<br /><br />The LDS church has clearly acted against the Lord’s direct commandment. This is clear and irrefutable, and we both know it. But you have stated that you are paying more than ever into the cause, and that you are fine with it. I asked you specific clear questions regarding the scripturally of your view and the Church’s actions. These are uncomfortable questions, because facts are stubborn things. You simply can’t get around the Lord’s emphatic statement regarding laying up treasure and serving mammon. <br /><br />So here’s the narrative you’ve invented to avoid being wrong: <br /><br />1. I’m actually the one who is wrong because I stopped taking comments on a couple of blog posts (including ALL comments, positive or negative), and let them stand, comment free. This, of course, has nothing at all to do with the question at hand. If you weren’t hiding behind a cowardly cloak of anonymity, I would have gladly reached out to you to discuss this before I made the decision…but I can’t, because you hide.<br /><br />2. Scriptures are written to individuals, not institutions. So…the problem is actually the individuals who have made the decisions to hoard this money and not help the poor? You mean the church leaders? The Lord will hold them personally accountable? I couldn’t agree more. You have correctly indicted the upper leadership of the church, who have ignored Christ’s word. Obviously institutions don’t make these decisions; people do.<br /><br />3. The scriptures about about “building up churches to get gain” and “loving money and substance more than the poor and needy” actually apply to me, and not to the LDS church that has amassed an incomprehensible fortune. Wow. That’s about as rational as “I know you are, but what am I?”<br /><br />4. Paying money to the church brings blessings, which will not be received without purchasing them in this way. This is known as the “prosperity gospel, and is absolutely false and unscriptural. I wrote about that in this post: https://www.totheremnant.com/2016/03/the-name-of-jesus-christ-part-3-gospel.html<br /><br />5. And finally, you’ve wrapped it all in a personal attack against me, complete with false accusations, numerous false statements, misrepresentations, and absurdities that would take pages and pages to unpack. This technique is known formally as the “Gish Gallop” and informally as the Firehose of Falsehood (at least in polite circles). The idea is to overwhelm your opponent with so much garbage that it’s simply not feasible or worthwhile to even address the steaming pile of falsehood.<br /><br />I realize it’s painful and breaks your whole worldview. I’ve been there and it’s hard, and you do have my sympathy. But the facts remain. You can attack the messenger all you want, but the facts won’t go away. Why not address the actual points of this post, as I laid out in the five questions I asked before, plus the bonus question in the final paragraph of my first response?<br /><br />I notice you have not answered them. Adrian Larsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-63287255205908546262020-01-26T11:50:22.162-07:002020-01-26T11:50:22.162-07:00I am so happy this is all coming out!! I have beli...I am so happy this is all coming out!! I have believed for years that I would see the COP fail and lose their non-profit status! Now I just need to figure out how would they change things so they can keep their Billions and the non-profit status.Robynnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09597141119549555082noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-40324229312510492492020-01-25T23:30:09.500-07:002020-01-25T23:30:09.500-07:00Sound of the drums
Beating in my heart
The thunder...Sound of the drums<br />Beating in my heart<br />The thunder of guns<br />Tore me apart<br />You've been<br />Thunderstruck<br />—AC/DC. "Thunderstruck"<br /><br />I grew up in the LDS church believing that God blesses the church and me individually when tithing is paid. Until the last seven or eight years I believed that tithing funds were sacred funds that were reserved for sacred purposes. Seven or eight years ago, however, I ran across Rock Waterman's excellent blog post exploring the subject of tithing, "Are We Paying Too Much Tithing?" Learning that tithing has been co-opted to fund church investments that have taken on a life of their own has left me feeling, well, like a sheep that has been shorn.<br /><br />I served a mission in a third-world country. I remember the shock of seeing flies on a baby's face in the home where we were giving a discussion for the first time. The child was probably malnourished. I winced every time we had to teach these loving, destitute folks that they could demonstrate their love towards God by paying 10% of their meager income to the church. The talks in your blog post, Adrian, refering to church leaders urging poor African members to pay tithing at all costs is heartbreaking. In light of the $100 billion treasure trove the church has amassed, I was thunderstruck.Pattynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-28640644639602393772020-01-25T20:47:47.361-07:002020-01-25T20:47:47.361-07:00Adrian and Uknown,
I'm happy to dialogue usi...Adrian and Uknown, <br /><br />I'm happy to dialogue using scripture, however the last two times we did a deep dive - you not only stopped allowing my comments, you removed my comments and stopped accepting comments at all on the post. Why? My comments in those specific posts weren't disparaging, but they did illustrate a different narrative and understanding of the scriptures than you were using, to show that your conclusions couldn't hold up to scripture. If so, then why not correct my comments instead of deleting them all? (TWICE) There are real issues with your scriptural interpretations. The scriptures should all fit nicely together, but when I present ideas that don't work with yours, you censor the comments. It's your prerogative, but if you're really trying to reach us wandering lost souls, have an answer, don't shut down the dialogue. That echoes of all of the wrong you profess on the church's dissenters. Perhaps you can now relate?<br /><br />The scriptures are written to individuals, not institutions. <br /><br />re-read your posted scripture of Mormon 4:5 (NC) and apply it to yourselves:<br /><br />This verse is directed to all those who were of the church and have turned to persecute the saints and even kill the saints as in the early days of church. Many of which after leaving the church, built up their own churches, for gain and praise of the world.<br /><br />"why have you built up churches unto yourselves, to get gain?" "O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ?" <br /><br />When you join the church and are baptized, you take upon you the name of Christ. You've become ashamed and leave and persecute the church. You stop paying tithing, and withhold your money and become cankered.<br /><br />In the early days those who fought the church, did so unto bloodshed.<br /><br />"Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain? And cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground for vengeance upon your heads."<br /><br />Your "preaching" pollutes the church and causes people to not obey laws and commandments, which ultimately limits their blessings.<br /><br />Obedience to Laws and Commandments brings blessings when done in faith, Period!<br /><br />Keep a law or commandment and benefit from the promised blessings, always! Don't and receive not!<br /><br />"There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—<br /><br />And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated."<br /><br />"Yea, blessed are they whose feet stand upon the land of Zion, who have obeyed my gospel; for they shall receive for their reward the good things of the earth, and it shall bring forth in its strength."<br /><br />"Who am I that made man, saith the Lord, that will hold him guiltless that obeys not my commandments?<br /><br />Who am I, saith the Lord, that have promised and have not fulfilled?<br /><br />I command and men obey not; I revoke and they receive not the blessing.<br /><br />Then they say in their hearts: This is not the work of the Lord, for his promises are not fulfilled. But wo unto such, for their reward lurketh beneath, and not from above."<br /><br />Your continual attacks on the members of the church with the scriptures that pertain to you, will only canker your souls.Remnant of Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12309921111614370730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-32266367090100958412020-01-25T14:31:16.376-07:002020-01-25T14:31:16.376-07:00What a perfect example of all of the ignoring of t...What a perfect example of all of the ignoring of the words of the scriptures, and brushing off the actions of the church because "I'm ok with it", that I have seen the past few weeks! Because as we all know, Christ said that scriptures are irrelevant as long as we're all collectively OK with the alternative! ALL IS WELL IN ZION! Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00677311975233982189noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-10888408242413815302020-01-25T01:51:28.958-07:002020-01-25T01:51:28.958-07:00What's interesting to me is that the LDS corp ...What's interesting to me is that the LDS corp has never denied the existence of this stash of funds nor how it was accumulated except to say that it is to be used when the Lord comes again (like he would need it). It is just amazing to me to witness prophesy being fulfilled in my lifetime when I thought it would be sometime in the distant future these things would come to fruition. BTW the post from Remanent was handled very well and what is interesting everything he mentioned corresponds quite well to BoM prophesy also especially his comment about being so blessed because he paid his tribute to the corporation thus making one to conclude what his true motive is in exercising his "faith". I just hope and pray that those few members who are "true followers of Christ" will have their eyes opened and hearts softened enough to see that there is now a legitimate and righteous way being offered again by the Lord through a chosen servant...again as prophesied.Leonardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13132169642095827470noreply@blogger.com