tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post1459262333308378906..comments2024-03-26T14:29:25.921-06:00Comments on To The Remnant: Ending, Trending, PretendingAdrian Larsenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-77761545959764807552015-05-25T09:19:22.436-06:002015-05-25T09:19:22.436-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-37674011992062889022015-05-24T19:29:21.387-06:002015-05-24T19:29:21.387-06:00I just attended a stake leadership training meetin...I just attended a stake leadership training meeting taught by Elder Allan F. Packer of the Seventy. He described the top leadership of the Church™ deciding in the temple that the best way to hasten the work and stem the spiritual drift taking place among the members is to re-emphasize the Sabbath day. <br /><br />If they really were interested in hastening something they could open their accounting of church finances like many other churches do and start apply more of those billions of dollars towards easing the suffering of the poor. The Lord will work his strange work in his own time. We, on the other hand, seriously need to hasten our own repentance.Horstnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-47438170294463343912015-05-18T12:48:58.304-06:002015-05-18T12:48:58.304-06:00Note your word "assume." If this were a ...Note your word "assume." If this were a trial, you would would not get a conviction. You cannot convict on assumptions, in the absence of proof. But the fact that you want to do so reveals what is in your heart.<br /><br />Brigham produced over 50 children with his polygamous wives. Joseph produced none. What shall we assume from that?<br /><br />And yes, it matters whether Brigham or Joseph was corrupt. It matters immensely because Joseph is the dispensation head, and this has broad implications I won't list here. But it matters a great deal.Adrian Larsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-6401627084323134472015-05-18T11:47:49.038-06:002015-05-18T11:47:49.038-06:00This is wishful thinking and just doesn't make...This is wishful thinking and just doesn't make any sense. Volumes of evidence cry against it. Put simply, it's completely reasonable to assume sex did take place, and very hard to believe that it did not. Is this fantasy scenario you describe possible, sure, but not likely. And either way it solves nothing. Whether Joseph went off the rails or BY did, same either way. This issue is no different than race/priesthood. The bottom line here is that you had a man with the title of "prophet" who screwed up in a huge huge way. And that's the bottom line. Could he/they still have been inspired in other ways, sure, absolutely. We just need to be honest about the reality of our world though. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-79471558243702433262015-05-13T20:31:15.304-06:002015-05-13T20:31:15.304-06:00The numbers come from the published statistical re...The numbers come from the published statistical reports of the church, as reported in General Conference. Adrian Larsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-24363941544414022142015-05-13T20:06:32.453-06:002015-05-13T20:06:32.453-06:00What sources are used with the graphs? Does anyone...What sources are used with the graphs? Does anyone know, Adrian do you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-24301551302960722922015-05-05T01:33:44.440-06:002015-05-05T01:33:44.440-06:00Helen Mar Kimball's recollection, which is fre...Helen Mar Kimball's recollection, which is frequently touted on the internet as having been written in her diary when she was 14, was actually written when she was in late middle age, and one of the plural wives of Orson F. Whitney. I think it should be noted that even if she were correct in stating she was sealed to Joseph, a sealing is a far cry from being coerced into having sex. Brigham Young was sealed to many men, but there is very little evidence he had sex with any of them. The sealing ordinance in those days was intended to provide a chain of connections between people going back to Joseph Smith. It did not include carnal relations. Men sealed to men was quite common, but it would be wrong to apply the sealing ordinance to those folks back then simply because our definition has come to mean being married.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-21730101586311013742015-05-04T23:42:48.002-06:002015-05-04T23:42:48.002-06:00I had reason to ponder about Joseph´s ”indiscretio...I had reason to ponder about Joseph´s ”indiscretions/sins”, or whatever people call them, this past weekend. It got me thinking about the time I worked at a court of law. <br /><br />In order to get someone convicted of felony, you first have to have to be able to decide what they’ve done and then measure it against a standard of ”non-criminal” behavior, that is, you have to be able to match the actions of the accused person to a rule which says that that sort of behavior is intolerable and unacceptable before there can be a verdict.<br /><br />When thinking about Joseph´s polygamy or whatever other thing he’s reported to have done which is thought to be in dire contrast to morals, God’s law or whatever other standard, we first need to, beyond reasonable doubt, determine what he actually did. A witness speaking 40 years after would most likely not have sufficed. <br /><br />But, if the witness would be reliable, then we need the ”standard of correctness”, without which there can be no sentencing. Since we are talking about commands from God to Joseph which aren’t written down, we can’t be sure of what standard to measure his actions against. We might conclude that, since we feel uneasy about what he’s done and that it contradicts the ”morals” of almost all people living in Western civilisations, then it can’t be wrong. But the righteousness of God can’t be defined by what goes for a depraved society.<br /><br />So, we are left with no real way to, for certain, judge Joseph of wrongful behavior in this regard. If we still do so, then it’s our choice. And we might need to analyze or motives for doing so since we might entertain an unloving approach towards our fellow men, and thereby showing that we don’t keep the first nor the second commandment (I believe there is an element of non-judgmentalism in the concept of loving God, the neighbor and oneself).<br /><br />This same principle is applicable to every other human being. Since we don’t know according to which divine mandate they are acting, we can’t say that they are unrighteous or mistaken. We can only love, persuade, and shoe forth long-suffering. The rest is up to God.Christianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17472278874852515384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-54886563246152851182015-05-04T21:05:24.212-06:002015-05-04T21:05:24.212-06:00I think it's worth remembering that in a crimi...I think it's worth remembering that in a criminal court, the standard of proof required is "beyond a reasonable doubt." In other words, if there's a reasonable doubt as to criminal behavior, the accused is presumed innocent.<br /><br />Hence the phrase you used, "the benefit of the doubt."<br /><br />The evidence that Joseph had sex with teenage girls is very unreliable. In fact, the evidence that Joseph had sex with anyone other than Emma is fraught with contradictions, doubts, and historical tampering by agenda-driven successors. <br /><br />Contemporary accounts and records show Joseph actively fighting against the "spiritual wifery" sexual relations that were happening in Nauvoo, while "recollections" written 40 or 50 years after the fact by those who were heavily invested in defending polygamy claim Joseph was participating.<br /><br />In a case where you, by your own admission, "don't know it as absolute fact" the safest course is to avoid being Joseph's accuser, lest you should err and accuse an innocent man.<br /><br />I think it's worth reading Snuffer's polygamy paper I linked in the post, if you haven't read it yet.Adrian Larsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-12090927598026746202015-05-04T17:57:42.239-06:002015-05-04T17:57:42.239-06:00You're right, in the sense that I don't kn...You're right, in the sense that I don't know it as absolute fact. But Helen Mar Kimball's journey seems to indicate it. when she said<br /><br /> "I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it."<br /><br />http://mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm#teens<br /><br />I would like to give Joseph the benefit of the doubt, but it's difficult to do so. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-59202526250229209512015-05-04T15:39:26.893-06:002015-05-04T15:39:26.893-06:00What evidence do you have confirming Joseph Smith ...What evidence do you have confirming Joseph Smith coerced 14 year old girls to have sex with him? I have heard rumor and hearsay to that effect, but you state it as if it were a known historical fact. <br />Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-57812695414233373582015-05-04T13:54:22.042-06:002015-05-04T13:54:22.042-06:00I was the anonymous that mentioned problems in the...I was the anonymous that mentioned problems in the foundation. I apologize, as I wasn't as clear as I could have been. Even though Denver contradicts himself by saying in 2nd Comforter we should sustain the brethren, and never speak ill of them, and then changes his mind in PTHG I was talking about problems in the foundation of the Restoration.<br /><br />There's problems with Joseph coercing fourteen year old girls to have sex with him, his multiple first vision accounts, the lost 116 pages and many more. Just look at Ether 2:23. From my understanding windows weren't even invented then. Think about all the animals in the barges rolling around, and it almost seems comical. <br /><br />I wanted the gospel and scriptures to still be true when I saw things that didn't add up with the leaders of the church. But It's to the point now that it seems it was all a sham from the beginning. It seems we've been cherry picking our data and only finding things that confirm our beliefs, while ignoring those that don't. (Confirmation bias)<br /><br />I would love nothing more for it all to be true, and to become a god one day, but I just can't ignore some things. But if you're happy with it then, I'm glad. I can't picture a perfect and just god condemning me for losing faith in something that was full of inconsistencies, and things that simply didn't add up. I Wish you all the best though in your search for truth.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-21432321405356590982015-05-03T22:01:20.631-06:002015-05-03T22:01:20.631-06:002nd anonymous, you slay he pays too much attention...2nd anonymous, you slay he pays too much attention to little things the prophet says. Well details are everything, and as far as Adrian deceiving people, I'll tell you what's deceiving.<br /><br /> It's deceiving to pressure nineteen year olds to swear their life away and leave their homes to spread mormonism, without letting them know information that if they had previously known they wouldn't have chosen to do those things.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-6136946632231355182015-05-03T09:06:53.510-06:002015-05-03T09:06:53.510-06:00Anonymous, you accuse Adrian of "speaking neg...Anonymous, you accuse Adrian of "speaking negatively about our prophet."<br /><br />Didn't you mean to say "our president"? A prophet is one who conveys direct messages from God in the voice of the almighty, such as Joseph Smith did on numerous occasions. A president is one who presides over an organization or a meeting.<br /><br /> I have seen Thomas Monson demonstrate the ability to preside over various functions, but have not seen him perform any acts that would warrant bestowing upon him the title of prophet, seer, or revelator. <br /><br />We should not toss around the label "prophet" on just anyone who holds high office. It cheapens the word.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-67208652796239921352015-05-02T22:55:58.799-06:002015-05-02T22:55:58.799-06:00Hi Second Anonymous (Name?)
Prophet and Apostle h...Hi Second Anonymous (Name?)<br /><br />Prophet and Apostle have been defined by the Prophet of the Restoration. Joseph taught that an apostle is not qualified unless the steps taken to see the face of God are complete. You read this blog, you must be in search of something. Maybe in your subconscious? If I may suggest, read the transcript of Todd D. Christofferson's interview of Friday the 13th of March. If that does not send up a warning flag of the direction of the corporate church??? His testimony is developing alright, as public opinion evolves.<br />Your comment is one that leads me to believe you are not familiar with Adrian's posts. This is not some sort of ego thing or entertainment for him. He spends a lot of time ( I am sure that he would rather spend with his family) warning his neighbor, as he has many, myself included. Adrian does not need my simplistic words to defend him, but I feel your "feeling sorry for his family" does nothing positive.I find his warning and your chastisement and your attempt to spur a guilty conscience far different. His guilt would only come from the exchange of the one soul he desires to warn and his family. If you were truly sincere in your sympathy, you would do more for them than words on a screen.<br />I also wish you peace in your journey, and hope your searching leads to the light you desire.Cowboy Joenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-35293860015500546022015-05-02T19:46:59.655-06:002015-05-02T19:46:59.655-06:00Another great article Adrian, thank you for the ti...Another great article Adrian, thank you for the time effort you put into sharing your knowledge & testimony. I will forever be indebted to you for the awakening that has occurred in my life. Brent Hansennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-83772469822781440062015-05-02T12:23:30.905-06:002015-05-02T12:23:30.905-06:00I guarantee that my discomfort comes from knowing ...I guarantee that my discomfort comes from knowing that what you're saying is untrue. I have feelings of sadness for your family being led astray by you. I brought up definitions because YOU focus so much on the wording of things you've read or what you've heard the Prophet say. Like I said, you're totally twisting things and your family members are the ones who are going to suffer from it. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-33045196410839003022015-05-02T12:10:42.680-06:002015-05-02T12:10:42.680-06:00Dear Anonymous,
Please feel free to use whatever...Dear Anonymous, <br /><br />Please feel free to use whatever definitions of "prophet" and "testify" work for you. I've written at length about prophets and prophecy, and don't need to rehash it here. <br /><br />Get the definitions right, and you will find the Lord. Get them wrong, and your eternal life is forfeit. I've done what I can to raise the warning.<br /><br />Similarly, if you view the issues I raise as "little things" then you have no need to waste your time reading them or feeling uncomfortable enough about them to chastise me. <br /><br />The beauty and terror of the test we face in mortality is that we're each free to heed whatever voices we choose. If you're comfortable with such testimonies as are offered you from those you call prophets, then I wish you peace and happiness enjoying your religion. <br /><br />Your discomfort with the points I make either comes from God or Satan. You may be uncomfortable because I'm spouting nonsense and garbage. Or you may be uncomfortable because I'm speaking truth that's increasingly hard to deny. You get to choose. <br /><br />Whoever you are, I wish you love and light. Your soul is precious. May you and I both heed God's direction to truth. Adrian Larsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-87788520509239977252015-05-02T11:50:51.827-06:002015-05-02T11:50:51.827-06:00Wow, Adrian! You're continually grasping at AN...Wow, Adrian! You're continually grasping at ANYTHING to speak negatively against the Prophet. I feel sad for you and your family and I feel you are so cynical and you are leading them astray. It seems like you're just picking and choosing what part(s) of the gospel work for you and then you seem to be on a crusade to be the martyr. <br />Just because President Monson doesn't say "I'd like to bear my testimony..." at every general conference, it doesn't mean he's not bearing his testimony or witness of Joseph Smith or The Book of Mormon. How about you quote the entire part about testimony from lds.org because it ALSO says "Part of a testimony's development comes when it is shared..." Nowhere does it say you have to formally declare statements as your testimony for it to count as a testimony. It also doesn't say how many words have to be spoken for a statement(s) to count as a testimony. It's like you're trying to say that a minimum quota of words is necessary for something to be considered a testimony. Totally ridiculous! By the way, below is a full definition of the word testify and I'm quite certain that Pres Monson's "statements" (in quotes because you call them that) have been him testifying of Joseph Smoth and The Book of Mormon. <br /><br />Testify:<br />-to talk about or say (something) in an honest and confident way<br />-to show that something is true or real<br />-to give proof of something<br />-to make a statement based on personal knowledge or belief<br />-bear witness <br />-to serve as evidence or proof <br />-to express a personal conviction<br /><br />Also, The simple definition of a prophet on lds.org is "a person who has been called by and speaks for God." Pres Packer saying that Pres Monson is called by prophecy is declaring exact that. You are getting so ridiculous with getting hung up on ANY little thing you can try to twist to disprove the church and our prophet. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-39382632965865212712015-05-02T10:34:09.870-06:002015-05-02T10:34:09.870-06:00I'll have to find the source, but I saw anothe...I'll have to find the source, but I saw another graphic about JS references in General Conference that was something like a 30 year timespan, and the recent drop isn't quite as drastic or abnormal as the graphic in the post portrays it. All in all, great post.UtahDebaterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15825673341094015689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-28895667264606752352015-05-02T02:22:57.365-06:002015-05-02T02:22:57.365-06:00Hi Leonard,
Thanks for reading. The source for nu...Hi Leonard,<br /><br />Thanks for reading. The source for number 5 is me. I read all of Pres. Packer's talks since Pros. Manson was called, and found that though he talks about Pres. Monson being "called by prophecy" he never says Pres. Monson is a prophet. It's interesting to read the careful wording.<br /><br />Adrian Larsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-32180123032904642772015-05-01T22:44:04.512-06:002015-05-01T22:44:04.512-06:00Adrian...thank you for this post and btw most of i...Adrian...thank you for this post and btw most of it did bother me but the truth has a tendency to do that. I was so impressed that I reposted it on LDSFF in the HG area. One question was raised about your item #5 about Bro Packer and his never testifying about TSM. Can you please provide the source for this? Thanks in advance and continue the good work of righteousness that you are doing here.Leonardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13132169642095827470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-37189169643947086402015-05-01T12:35:09.299-06:002015-05-01T12:35:09.299-06:00Anonymous, what problems with Denver's foundat...Anonymous, what problems with Denver's foundation are you referring to? Would you please be specific?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-52264203255881741752015-05-01T11:28:33.041-06:002015-05-01T11:28:33.041-06:00I enjoyed your post, and agree with it on a lot of...I enjoyed your post, and agree with it on a lot of terms. But I'm not so sure when you say that we must be careful on what we say about Joseph. Do you really feel a just god would condemn someone who questioned Joseph's motives for seducing a fourteen year old girl, when evidence clearly points to it? Upon discovering things that didn't add up with the church, I looked into Denver Snuffer and his overall message, but there's problems with the foundation. Have you all checked out http://mormonthink.com/?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-13372013407700543722015-05-01T00:58:44.842-06:002015-05-01T00:58:44.842-06:00There was a huge upswing in church growth really b...There was a huge upswing in church growth really began in 1987 with the peak number of converts per missionary in 1989 and the peak number of converts in 1990. Why you ask? Who was the Church President and what was he pushing? Then what happened in 1990? If you know the answers to these questions then it is pretty plain. <br /><br />Answers: President Benson, Flooding the Earth with the Book of Mormon, Major overhaul in the Temple ordinances removing some of the most important, plain, and precious parts. <br /><br />Anyone with eyes to see can see...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com