tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post4183807761907871673..comments2024-03-26T14:29:25.921-06:00Comments on To The Remnant: Prophets, Part 1: Mommy, Where do Prophets Come From?Adrian Larsenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-28862489356436202572022-09-26T12:49:24.501-06:002022-09-26T12:49:24.501-06:00I know that Brigham in 1847 had is 'still smal...I know that Brigham in 1847 had is 'still small voice' moment at Winter Quarters where there was the claim of legitimacy through Joseph Smith, but I can't find references for Taylor or Woodruff. It is kind of hard to prove a false negative eg "show me where this doesn't exist"...Aaron Kibbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07222482229142776514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-60974742608142912412022-09-26T11:48:57.475-06:002022-09-26T11:48:57.475-06:00It's my understanding that neither Brigham You...It's my understanding that neither Brigham Young, John Taylor nor Wilford Woodruff were ever ordained as church president. They were simply voted in. Adrian Larsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-83272334930962565022022-09-26T10:20:59.879-06:002022-09-26T10:20:59.879-06:00Which President of the church was not ordained?Which President of the church was not ordained?Aaron Kibbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07222482229142776514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-74649972315766938212020-03-24T16:55:15.218-06:002020-03-24T16:55:15.218-06:00Thank you, good explanationThank you, good explanationFabiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05360581495516654986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-2512674540420586352015-04-10T18:10:18.136-06:002015-04-10T18:10:18.136-06:00Yes, unless someone else is actually appointed by ...Yes, unless someone else is actually appointed by the twelve, then the President of the Quorum of the Twelve is automatically and instantly the new Corporation Sole, and therefore the legal president of the corporation. It takes proactive action by the Quorum to NOT have the most senior apostle become the next legal successor. Barring such action, it is indeed automatic.Adrian Larsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-56864148256685684382015-04-10T13:34:52.212-06:002015-04-10T13:34:52.212-06:00To be completely fair to the Church, I honestly co...To be completely fair to the Church, I honestly couldn't find the wording in the charter that made the traditional succession pattern (longest-serving apostle becomes president) automatic. It says that upon the death of the president, the corporation sole will be, pending the installation of a successor president, either the president of the quorum of the twelve, the acting president of the quorum of the twelve, or a designated member of the quorum of the twelve. On top of that, it makes no mention of the who the actual successor president has to be.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10475072239381025179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-39192656901279666002015-01-21T22:34:12.167-07:002015-01-21T22:34:12.167-07:00For an exploration of the same subject from a slig...For an exploration of the same subject from a slightly different angle, Zomorah's blog post, 'Thomas S. Monson: A Seer, a Revelator, a Translator, and a Prophet' is a must. Disarmingly friendly. Delightfully honest.<br /><br />https://zomarah.wordpress.com/2011/02/09/thomas-s-monson-a-seer-a-revelator-a-translator-and-a-prophet/Pattynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-23853274388106355652015-01-17T04:39:50.653-07:002015-01-17T04:39:50.653-07:00A terrific essay, Adrian. My challenge will be to ...A terrific essay, Adrian. My challenge will be to incorporate something from this into my next Gospel Doctrine lesson on John the Baptist without throwing the class into mass confusion and getting myself run out of town. <br /><br />Brigham Young demurred from claiming to be a prophet when he said, ”I am not going to interpret dreams; for I don’t profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser;” (Brigham Young, Sermon, July 26, 1857, JD 5:77.) <br /><br />Brigham knew by his association with Joseph Smith what a prophet, seer, revelator and translator was. For one who claimed so much ecclesiastical and political power in early Utah, this is a telling and vital confession and calls into question his teachings about polygamy, Adam-God and blacks not being worthy to hold the priesthood.Pattynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-48294658246273393622014-12-17T13:52:22.947-07:002014-12-17T13:52:22.947-07:00Section 107:21-22 seems to suggest that the First ...Section 107:21-22 seems to suggest that the First Presidency is chosen "by the body" of Mechizedek priesthood holders in general and not any leadership quorums or presidency specifically: <br /><br />21 Of necessity there are presidents, or presiding officers growing out of, or appointed of or from among those who are ordained to the several offices in these two priesthoods.<br /><br /> 22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.HappySeekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07971921655319421938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-69003970914324536872014-12-16T03:22:35.713-07:002014-12-16T03:22:35.713-07:00This entry (and most of the others to some extent)...This entry (and most of the others to some extent) remind me once again that I NEED to study and thoughtfully consider the gifts of the Spirit, and make this a top priority in my gospel study (D&C 46 in particular). God's been trying to get me to do this for several years now, and I keep starting to... then get sidetracked by other things, both church and secular related. Now that I've distanced myself from the formal church organization, I no longer feel obligated to meet arbitrary study goals set by overzealous priesthood and auxiliary leaders/teachers, so hopefully I won't get distracted this time.mtman318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-63750982794616837712014-12-14T16:59:00.023-07:002014-12-14T16:59:00.023-07:00I don’t think this understanding of Micah 3 is acc...I don’t think this understanding of Micah 3 is accurate, and the inaccurate interpretation is being applied to attempt to correct Adrian, incorrectly.<br /><br />In verse 5, the Lord does indeed acknowledge a group as “prophets.” But this group is being indicted by the Lord for doing something which does not jive with the calling of a prophet: They are claiming to prophesy “peace” for those who are supporting/sustaining/feeding them, and claiming to prophesy “war” upon those who do not support/sustain/feed them. (The King James verbiage really mucks up the understanding of this verse.) <br /><br />Whatever other correct fruits of a prophet these men (and women?) may have displayed, thereby making them recognizable as prophets, they have come to indulge in practices which the Lord condemns: they have become exploiters of the people, slanting their prophesy based on whether their carnal interests are being fulfilled by the people.<br /><br />As a result, in verses 6 and 7, the Lord establishes a FUTURE TENSE declaration against these PRESENTLY errant prophets. Meaning that at the time of the declaration, these things had not come to pass yet. The darkness had not been passed over the prophets, the end of visions had not been passed upon the seers, and therefore they could still be justifiably titled such in the Lord’s declarations against them.<br /><br />If anything, the Lord is not recognizing as prophets those who lack fruit. He is declaring that a group who have displayed the fruits of prophesy have gone astray, and as a result He declares He will strip them of their gifts by closing the heavens over them. Then they will not be prophets anymore, having no more fruit from heaven to display to the world.<br /><br />Adrian’s logic concerning the examination of fruit is sound.<br /><br />MikeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-80253472451058489372014-12-14T14:27:02.583-07:002014-12-14T14:27:02.583-07:00Just wanted to say thank you, Adrian, for setting ...Just wanted to say thank you, Adrian, for setting all of this out so clearly. I know others have said it already, but I wanted to add my voice, as well. Thank you for being so thorough, and so painstakingly clear. Much love, Brother Larsen, to you and your family.Annaleahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12964274663555911996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-48024185360259489442014-12-14T12:06:26.351-07:002014-12-14T12:06:26.351-07:00Brother Sorenson,
Your citation establishes that...Brother Sorenson, <br /><br />Your citation establishes that possession of interpreters is sufficient to be called "seer," but what it does not establish is that it is necessary.<br /><br />What is needed is a scripture which says, in so many words, "whosoever hath not interpreters is not seer."Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-28219046319158582932014-12-14T12:02:30.389-07:002014-12-14T12:02:30.389-07:00Log, I agree. D&C 107 tells us the President o...Log, I agree. D&C 107 tells us the President of the church has a duty to be a prophet. So he is "called" to be such. But until he actually receives the gift and does something with it, it is merely a title. <br /><br />The Lord calls them "shepherds" which fail to feed and protect the flock, and actually kill and eat the sheep (Ezekiel 34:1-3). The shepherds had a job to do, and they fail to do it. The Lord yet refers to them as shepherds, as they are called to be such. <br /><br />Adrian Larsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-64286089847186308872014-12-14T11:53:46.195-07:002014-12-14T11:53:46.195-07:00Hi Log,
I'm afraid we'll simply have to d...Hi Log,<br /><br />I'm afraid we'll simply have to disagree. The essence of the discussion comes down to burden of proof. I hold that the prophet is to issue prophecy, and thus provide evidence of his calling and the truth of his message. In other words, the burden of proof is on him to furnish the fruits Christ commanded us to look for.<br /><br />I believe this is a logically consistent position to take.<br /><br />You hold that the burden of proof is on me to prove he has not issued prophecy. Must I also systematically prove the dozens or hundreds of pretenders in various offshoots of the restoration are also not prophets? At what point does my burden of proof end? The Pope? <br /><br />The burden imposed by Christ is that prophets bear fruit and we know them by judging the fruit. <br /><br />Would we call Joseph Smith a prophet if he had never translated the Book of Mormon, experienced visions, and issued revelation? Would it be my responsibility to prove he was not a prophet in the absence of fruit?<br /><br />The fruit is the proof. <br />Adrian Larsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-51200008249743109232014-12-14T11:09:12.076-07:002014-12-14T11:09:12.076-07:00Nice post Adrian
If I may I'd like to add a t...Nice post Adrian<br /><br />If I may I'd like to add a thought about seers. In order to be a seer you must also be in possession of seer stones. If one claims to be a seer (or requires a sustaining of such) and is not in possession of seer stones they are NOT a seer.<br /><br />Moroni makes it clear to Joseph that it is the possession of these stones that constitutes a seer.<br /><br />35 Also, that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and THE POSSESSION AND USE OF THESE STONES WERE WHAT CONSTITUTED "SEERS" in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.<br />Joseph Smith—History 1:35<br /><br />Mosiah was a true seer because as Ammon says, "he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date." Mosiah was in possession of seer stones.<br /><br />Mosiah 8<br />13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he HAS wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06244824015861541082noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-48844298756979607642014-12-14T07:07:39.836-07:002014-12-14T07:07:39.836-07:00Brother Larsen,
The citation below from Micah 3 i...Brother Larsen,<br /><br />The citation below from Micah 3 indicates there are prophets without fruit. That Christ's test cannot be applied in the absence of evidence only means you can't apply Christ's test, not that those you would test have presumptively failed Christ's test.<br /><br />I ask again - do you know of yourself the dentist has never worked on anyone's teeth? If not, then you would err in proclaiming he has not or cannot.<br /><br />Internal logical consistency is, I believe, a necessary feature of a just judgement.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-32176229306868560572014-12-14T07:03:09.501-07:002014-12-14T07:03:09.501-07:00You're welcome. I trust you see the point of ...You're welcome. I trust you see the point of the citation - and for those who don't, the point is prophets nor seers have to bear public fruit to be called as such in the eyes of the Lord.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-48805999957545601222014-12-14T06:21:31.337-07:002014-12-14T06:21:31.337-07:00You don't know that he hasn't worked on an...You don't know that he hasn't worked on anyone's teeth, do you?Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-86139747928509377462014-12-14T02:54:23.286-07:002014-12-14T02:54:23.286-07:00Log,
Excellent reference. Thank you very much for...Log,<br /><br />Excellent reference. Thank you very much for sharing!Adrian Larsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-73676540857352494592014-12-14T02:53:26.563-07:002014-12-14T02:53:26.563-07:00Log, thank you for commenting. I'm afraid in t...Log, thank you for commenting. I'm afraid in this case, absence of evidence IS evidence of absence because Christ proclaimed we must have evidence to judge. If there is no fruit, there is no prophet. Not a true prophet, not a false prophet. Nothing. Christ's test cannot be applied in the absence of evidence. <br /><br />I also think, that in the dental analogy, it doesn't matter how many people testify the man is a dentist if he has never worked on anyone's teeth. It's not a question of my teeth; it's a question of any teeth, anywhere, ever.<br /><br />I don't need to meet a man personally to test his fruits. But there must be fruits to test.Adrian Larsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-19342407860110742952014-12-14T02:47:28.353-07:002014-12-14T02:47:28.353-07:00Log, I agree. Those men may well have been prophet...Log, I agree. Those men may well have been prophets, seers and revelators. But I'm not aware of Joseph stating that any and all men ever called to the apostleship in the future would also be such. Hence, I view it as an aspiration and hope.Adrian Larsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-67214644775891868792014-12-13T21:27:33.162-07:002014-12-13T21:27:33.162-07:00Indeed, Brother Larsen, you might find this intere...Indeed, Brother Larsen, you might find this interesting.<br /><br /><i>Micha 3:5 ¶Thus saith the Lord concerning the prophets that make my people err, that bite with their teeth, and cry, Peace; and he that putteth not into their mouths, they even prepare war against him.<br /><br /> 6 Therefore night shall be unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them.<br /><br /> 7 Then shall the seers be ashamed, and the diviners confounded: yea, they shall all cover their lips; for there is no answer of God.</i>Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-48314712767677658252014-12-13T21:22:26.320-07:002014-12-13T21:22:26.320-07:00Brother Larsen,
Absence of evidence is not eviden...Brother Larsen,<br /><br />Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Your dentist may be able to do all he says - the fact that you haven't witnessed him doing it, but have heard many testimonials that he can do it on top of his publicized credentialing, does not mean he cannot do it. It only means that you don't know he can do it. That's as far as you can go in truth.<br /><br />Unless you have additional information you haven't been cluing us in on.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-60353939392867451352014-12-13T21:18:22.994-07:002014-12-13T21:18:22.994-07:00Brother Larsen, when Joseph asked the Church to ac...Brother Larsen, when Joseph asked the Church to acknowledge the Twelve, who were present, as prophets, seers, revelators, and special witnesses to all the nations of the earth, holding the keys of the kingdom, that was not an elucidation of a future happenstance but - in straightforward English - to acknowledge a present reality.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.com