tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post1646508136510861200..comments2024-03-26T14:29:25.921-06:00Comments on To The Remnant: Prophets, Part 3: We Thank Thee, O God, for a PrincessAdrian Larsenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-7992237869197789442015-03-15T13:25:15.110-06:002015-03-15T13:25:15.110-06:00Here Here or is it Hear Hear Kevin. I agree comple...Here Here or is it Hear Hear Kevin. I agree completely with you. There is most certainly a spirit of contention here and I applaud Adrian in how well he has fended those who are straining at a gnat as he so aptly pointed out. I don't think it was pointed out here, so I will. I think those gnat strainers are in all actuality Idolators and hate the idea of being called out for what they really and truly are. <br />I be known as GaryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-15128784708697932162015-01-19T22:13:21.290-07:002015-01-19T22:13:21.290-07:00Whoops. I missed Jessica's comment that alread...Whoops. I missed Jessica's comment that already notes President Benson's famous 'Beware of Pride' talk being ghost-written by daughter-in-law, May Benson, who cribbed important sections of it from C.S. Lewis. Feel free to delete my comment, Adrian. It's noteworthy to me that May Benson felt strongly against pride because of the pride she perceived in her husband's family.Pattynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-39647309613025553482015-01-19T21:26:34.246-07:002015-01-19T21:26:34.246-07:00Your excellent second example of wisdom that might...Your excellent second example of wisdom that might or might not have originated with a prophet has a curious back story in its connection to Ezra Taft Benson. What arguably is Benson's most profound theological address in a General Conference was ghost-written by his daughter-in-law, May Benson, who borrowed liberally from C.S. Lewis book, 'Mere Christianity' without the courtesy of an attribution. Benson was so ill and incapacitated that Gordon B. Hinckley delivered the speech in Conference. Every time we teach from the Benson talk--it is one of my favorite resources on the subject--Lewis probably winks and chuckles knowingly.<br /><br />Grandson, Steve Benson, tells the tale.<br /><br />http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1009703,1009882Pattynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-48063393797989665922015-01-11T21:05:48.794-07:002015-01-11T21:05:48.794-07:00This was eye opening.
However, I couldn't he...This was eye opening. <br /><br />However, I couldn't help but have Bruce R. McConkie come to mind with your last quote and scripture. <br /><br />Say what you want about him as a person. <br /><br />When he stood at the pulpit to deliver his sermons he did so with the boldness you say that you long for at General Conference.Ahuizotlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-18632268490418198562015-01-01T19:22:26.103-07:002015-01-01T19:22:26.103-07:00Hi Holly,
I want to thank you for reading and tak...Hi Holly,<br /><br />I want to thank you for reading and taking the time to respond. It takes some courage to do so, and even more to use your real name. I applaud you for doing so. <br /><br />It's undoubtedly jarring to realize someone like me can come to such different conclusions than you after careful and lengthy study. I don't blame you for being jarred.<br /><br />Thank you for sharing your beliefs. Of course, it doesn't matter one whit what you believe or what I do. In the end, what matters is truth. To the extent our beliefs are in God's truth, we are able to exercise faith unto life and salvation. To the extent our beliefs are in error, we CANNOT exercise faith and we will be damned.<br /><br />I recommend you read my blog from the beginning, where I covered and supported some of these very important concepts. I hope you will, and that you will continue commenting. But even more, I hope the questions I raise will send you to the scriptures and to the Lord, where you can receive the truths that will save us.<br /><br />Thanks again for commenting. I invite you to support your comments with applicable scripture so that we may all be edified.<br /><br />Kind regards,<br /><br />AdrianAdrian Larsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-82610432428745342402015-01-01T17:04:07.886-07:002015-01-01T17:04:07.886-07:00And then there's this: when I was in college, ...And then there's this: when I was in college, years ago, I went with a family home evening group to the Joseph Smith Memorial building. At the end of the night, we asked a worker there if there was a private place we could use to say a closing prayer for our activity. He got a twinkle in his eye, looked around and said, "I have a real treat for you. Follow me." He took us down several hall ways past several roped-off areas until we reached a sort of board room that looked out directly at the temple. As soon as we walked into that room there was a powerful feeling that came over each of us. The worker explained that it was a room where the prophet and apostles often met to make decisions. We knelt in prayer in the dark with the temple shining in front of us, and each of us had tears in our eyes by the time the prayer was done. The room was hushed. We looked at each other, but we didn't say a word. We had a common understanding that this room was sacred. It wasn't because of what we'd been told. It was because of what we could FEEL. After we walked out, each of us described the peaceful electricity we could feel in that room. I'm sure each of us holds that experience dear to our hearts to this day. I know I do. I know it was a huge testament to me that our leaders are truly men of God and divinely inspired. They may not be perfect men....in fact, of course they're not perfect men, but they hold sacred callings. I honor them and support them. I'm grateful for the huge sacrifice they make to serve me and my family and all the world. And I know they are divinely called to direct this work. Nothing is black and white. People aren't all good or all bad. People are people. But God can do great good through ordinary people, and I do thank my Father in Heaven for the prophet, Thomas S. Monson.Holworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09676029758120267060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-35511152633733942902015-01-01T17:04:00.789-07:002015-01-01T17:04:00.789-07:00I believe you are a very intelligent person, Adria...I believe you are a very intelligent person, Adrian. However, it is pretty astounding to me how different your understanding is of the gospel, the church and revelation is from my own understanding. I have never viewed prophets as infallible human beings who should spout revelation with every breath. I have viewed them as imperfect human beings who also walk by faith as they are every bit as mortal as I am. Do I believe they talk to God? Yes. But I also believe every individual receives revelation differently, just as we all have different learning styles. Who knows what their exact relationship is or how they receive the revelation they receive. That's not really important to me. What's important to me is that they receive inspiration to give us the messages we need as a whole. And sometimes that message is a simple one. Maybe you'd love to have new revelation every time the prophet speaks, but in my mind that would be insane. The church would be changing daily if that were the case. Sometimes God works in quiet, simple ways, not in flashy, dynamic ways. And sometimes that's not enough for some people. People want a sign. They want fireworks. In my experience, the Spirit is quiet. God's voice is quiet. Sometimes, we have amazing spiritual experiences...I've had some incredibly sacred, powerful, miraculous experiences myself where I have been very close to my Father in Heaven, Savior and the other side of the veil. But, I also had way more experiences that were quiet and yet still strengthening and sustaining. The prophet may not be saying something as drastic as what you want to hear, but it doesn't mean that his words aren't what we need at that time as a whole congregation of worldwide members. And any good leader knows that delegation is key. If what we've needed to hear has been said by other prophets, seers and revelators during General Conference, why isn't that okay? Does it all have to come from one person? I have learned from so many different speakers at General Conference. I have used their words in my life so many times to help me, to strengthen me, to bring comfort to my heart, to bring understanding to my mind. I'm always amazed at how powerful their seemingly simple messages are when you really delve into them. There are so many layers to their messages. Holworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09676029758120267060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-2614673358797055682014-12-28T12:32:00.099-07:002014-12-28T12:32:00.099-07:00Adrian,
I would add that absent the fruits, what ...Adrian, <br />I would add that absent the fruits, what good is the tree. We read of Christ and the barren fig tree. Absent the fruit Christ's hunger was not assuaged and he cursed it. The whole purpose in the creation of a fruit trees is to bare fruit to be meat for Gods children.<br /><br />If we do have Prophets, Seers and Revelators among us and their fruit is not apparent for us to partake, as it were, then our hunger is not satisfied by them and and thus of little benefit to us, as is evidenced by the many in the church and who have left who are hungering still.<br /><br />Other tests I employ, in addition to the Lord's: One is referenced in Alma 36:24-26<br />To taste as Alma has tasted and to know as Alma knew.<br /> <br />Another from Joseph: "I want you all to know God, to be familiar with him. And if I can bring you to him all persecution against me will cease and let you know that I am his servant." --Words of Joseph Smith pg.349<br /><br />Josephs whole motivation was to get the "saints" to come up to the level of light he possessed. For truly that is the only way that the Lord will/can come and dwell among us. And in my mind if the current leaders are not bringing forth the kind of fruit Joseph and Alma did (as did others of the holy prophets). Then they are of little benefit to us. <br />Great post. <br />EricDL<br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-53124722327297947612014-12-26T13:16:14.073-07:002014-12-26T13:16:14.073-07:00Hi Anonymous,
Thanks for sharing this reference. ...Hi Anonymous,<br /><br />Thanks for sharing this reference. Excellent reading for all of us.<br /><br />I think the reference underscores the need for the gifts to be employed publicly for the benefit of the church. Joseph notes that of all the spiritual gifts, only prophecy and tongues are readily apparent to others. In other words, someone may have the gift of healing, but nobody would know it until that person actually healed someone. <br /><br />The gift of prophecy, however, Joseph puts into a different category. He asserts that one having this gift will display it publicly by prophesying. Lacking this evidence, there's no reason to say the gift is present. See page 246.<br /><br />And though Paul didn’t share his vision for 14 years, he did share it, and thus we can call him a seer. True enough, he was a seer before he shared his vision, but who would know it? How would they properly call him a seer until there was evidence he was?<br /><br />Joseph is perfectly in keeping with Christ’s teaching that we would know them by their fruits. Absent the fruits, there’s no way to tell. Adrian Larsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-26148844869765168282014-12-22T21:55:34.917-07:002014-12-22T21:55:34.917-07:00I read the three articles that you wrote on Prophe...I read the three articles that you wrote on Prophets and their fruit. I found them agreeable and thought provoking. I have some questions regarding the fruit that I would like Clarity on. In TPJS pgs 242-247 The Prophet Joseph Smith talks about the Gift of the Holy Ghost and the Gifts of the Spirit( I found it a very good read) . He says That not all gifts or the fruit thereof can be known by an observer TPJS pg 247 .......and we shall finally have to come to the same conclusion that Paul did—"No man knows the things of God but by the Spirit of God;" for with the great revelations of Paul when he was caught up into the third heaven and saw things that were not lawful to utter, no man was apprised of it until he mentioned it himself fourteen years after; and when John had the curtains of heaven withdrawn, and by vision looked through the dark vista of future ages, and contemplated events that should transpire throughout every subsequent period of time, until the final winding up scene—while he gazed upon the glories of the eternal world, saw an innumerable company of angels and heard the voice of God—it was in the Spirit, on the Lord's day, unnoticed and unobserved by the world. I would like to here your thought on the matter. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-50002579878021415442014-12-20T21:25:16.397-07:002014-12-20T21:25:16.397-07:00What use is a prophet that does not give words of ...What use is a prophet that does not give words of prophecy? Why should I listen to him over any other person? More importantly, when this man offers council contrary to words God has spoken, why should I listen to him?Zo-ma-rahhttp://zomarah.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-8571017166407073912014-12-20T16:43:15.494-07:002014-12-20T16:43:15.494-07:00It would seem that the view that Gordon B. Hinckle...It would seem that the view that Gordon B. Hinckley expressed about not needing more revelation, has been the view of the leaders of the church since Joseph died. <br /><br /> In the Joseph Smith papers volume 2 page xxxiv it says "in criticizing Rigdon's approach, the twelve argued that their present focus was not to obtain new revelations but to implement the revelations already received by Joseph Smith."<br /><br />Then it goes on to quote parley Pratt stating as much. I won't post the quote here as I am on my phone, but Brigham does say that they held the keys to get revelation. So they at that time believed they had the keys to get revelation and yet chose not to use them? Said they didn't need it!?!? Now 170 years later I guess we still don't need it I guess. Bryce Stevensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13868955438930211118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-65197104348484598552014-12-19T12:52:04.848-07:002014-12-19T12:52:04.848-07:00(Part 2)
Now, that said, I’ll still gladly revis...(Part 2) <br /><br />Now, that said, I’ll still gladly revise my earlier comment if it will settle the issue. “The Prophet” NEARLY always referred to Joseph Smith until the 1950’s when there was a shift in practice to referring to the sitting president as “the Prophet.” <br /><br />What a monumental waste of time this reply has been. <br /><br />We’re straining at gnats at this point and swallowing a camel. Rather than dissecting every minor comment I’ve made and scouring historical records to try and find an exception and “catch” me, why don’t we discuss the infinitely more important questions I’ve been bringing up:<br /><br />Why aren’t we led by those who display the gifts that Joseph Smith displayed? What changed? When? Why? What does this say about our current state?<br /><br />Why do we insist on still using those titles and claiming those gifts when they are so clearly absent? <br /><br />By doing so, can we ever awaken and arise to the awfulness of our situation?<br /><br />And most of all, will a religion that makes us comfortable and tells us we’re chosen, special, and safe as long as we follow a man—ever bring us to humility, repentance and faith? Will we ever cry out to God to save us when we trust in a man with keys? Will we ever give the search for Christ the attention it requires when we can get Disney Quotes every six months and chicken soup to soothe our souls?<br /><br />To Quote C.S. Lewis:<br />Of course, I quite agree that the Christian religion is, in the long run, a thing of unspeakable comfort. But it does not begin in comfort; it begins in the dismay I have been describing, and it is no use at all trying to go on to that comfort without first going through that dismay. In religion, as in war and everything else. comfort is the one thing you cannot get by looking for it. If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end; if you look for comfort you will not get neither comfort nor truth - only soft soap and wishful thinking to begin with and, in the end, despair. Adrian Larsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-72020082984669400192014-12-19T12:50:24.796-07:002014-12-19T12:50:24.796-07:00Dear (still) Anonymous Seeker,
Thank you for fact...Dear (still) Anonymous Seeker,<br /><br />Thank you for fact-checking me on that. This issue is a nit-pick and an avoidance of the elephant in the room. <br /><br />We can choose to discuss the public display of God’s gifts to the church (or lack thereof) and consider the reasons they may be absent and what to do about our predicament. Or we can talk about who called who a prophet, as if what we call them makes them so.<br /><br />Nevertheless, since you brought up the April 1880 conference, here’s the rest of the story:<br /><br />By my count, which admittedly could be off by one or two, there are 23 uses of the word prophet in the entire two-day conference. 10 of those referred to Joseph Smith. Here’s the breakdown:<br /><br />Joseph Smith-10<br />Daniel-2<br />Isaiah-3<br />Elisha-2<br />John Taylor (as a prophet, seer and revelator, not THE prophet) 1<br />Generic use of “prophet” -1<br />Unspecified prophet-2<br />Christ-1<br />And finally, the reference you made to Brigham Young. Here’s the quote:<br /><br /><i>“You remember what was called the Buchanan War—the speculators’ war, or war on the Treasury—when a detail of picked troops, comprising the flower of the United States army, came out to fight the ‘Mormons.’ But the Prophet told them to stop at Fort Bridger, and they stopped there until their ardor cooled, being blockaded in the snow, and having to consume some of their mules for food while we herded their cattle for them. [a reference to the Mormons stealing the army’s cattle at Brigham’s command.]” </i><br /><br />So the reference is to “the Prophet” telling the army to stop at Fort Bridger, and the army being stopped there by a blizzard. <br /><br />I’ll be the first to admit here that I could be wrong. However, I’ve been unable to locate a historic record of Brigham Young telling the U.S. army to stop at Fort Bridger and the army obeying. <br /><br />I think the more likely reading is that the speaker (Franklin D. Richards) is saying Joseph Smith (the Prophet) intervened from heaven to cause the blizzard and stop the army. This notion that Joseph was yet watching over the church and protecting it is reflected by the hymn, “Praise to the Man” by W. W. Phelps:<br /><br />“Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven! Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain. Mingling with Gods he can plan for his brethren; Death cannot conquer the hero again.”<br /><br />(Continued)Adrian Larsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-54214862083603474662014-12-19T12:25:24.787-07:002014-12-19T12:25:24.787-07:00At this point, we're really only discussing a ...At this point, we're really only discussing a title. We both agree the public fruits are not present. And THAT is the issue, in my opinion. If we want to call a man a prophet who does not prophesy, we're all free to do so.<br /><br />In a similar vein, we can call a man a farmer, though he's never grown a crop, we can call a man a mechanic, though he's never repaired a machine, and we can call a woman a mother, though she's. never born or adopted a child. At some point it just gets silly. <br /><br />I don't know much about trees. If I come upon a tree I don't recognize, the only way I would know it to be an apple tree is the by presence of apples. Otherwise, I would know it is a tree, but I would know little else. Isn't this what Christ taught? <br /><br />Yes, I realize there are other ways to tell an apple tree from, say, a maple tree, and yes, I realize that an apple tree remains an apple tree all winter long. No need to reiterate that.<br /><br />Christ said to judge by the fruits. The fruits are, in our day, absent. This is cause for alarm. This ought to have us deeply concerned and calling out to God. This ought to drive us to study scripture relentlessly to see what we're missing. <br /><br />My concern is that by using the vocabulary of the restoration, but changing definitions of words, we stay asleep, content to believe we have all we need and that we've lost nothing since Joseph. It is the sleep of Hell. <br /><br />Speaking to all (not just Log): Go ahead and call a man a prophet who doesn't prophesy, if that makes you feel better about the situation. If it's that important to you to follow a man and give him a title, you will never come to know the One you should actually be following. <br /><br />Following a man, even a man with a title, is not the same as following Christ.Adrian Larsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-57578240697762130982014-12-19T12:16:36.756-07:002014-12-19T12:16:36.756-07:00Brother Log,
I hold a different idea about what c...Brother Log,<br /><br />I hold a different idea about what constitutes the testimony of Jesus. But I'm perfectly content to leave that for another day. This is not the time or place to teach it, and you've made your point. So I'll just leave this one alone. Adrian Larsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173995703995901609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-19967788270339116112014-12-19T12:09:08.140-07:002014-12-19T12:09:08.140-07:00I would encourage those who have asked and the hea...I would encourage those who have asked and the heavens remain silent to remember this parable.<br /><br /><i> 1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;<br /><br /> 2 Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:<br /><br /> 3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.<br /><br /> 4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;<br /><br /> 5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.<br /><br /> 6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.</i><br /><br />And, remember - no answer is not a "no." It is simply no answer. This is a test and a trial we all go through.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-84507535427153579302014-12-19T12:05:41.042-07:002014-12-19T12:05:41.042-07:00One additional thought from Alma 1:21&22
&quo...One additional thought from Alma 1:21&22<br /><br />"Now there was a strict law among the people of the church, that there should not any man, belonging to the church, arise and persecute those that did not belong to the church, and that there should be no persecution among themselves. Nevertheless, there were many among them who began to be proud, and began to contend warmly with their adversaries, even unto blows; yea, they would smite one another with their fists."<br /><br />I wonder how long it will be before we see this come to pass yet again in our day...I pray that none of will be caught up in it on either side.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10671444140820205683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-58705592077161491402014-12-19T10:18:52.890-07:002014-12-19T10:18:52.890-07:00My son has a shirt that seems to me fits this stri...My son has a shirt that seems to me fits this string of comments perfectly.<br /><br />"I'm not arguing! I'm just explaining why I'm right!"<br /><br />I would like to add to this 3 Nephi 11:29 "For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another."<br /><br />I don't do FaceBook or usually comment on blogs/forums for this very reason. Someone always has an opposing view and "KNOWS" that his/her particular view is correct and true and is the more righteous path. However, I feel the need to put this out there for ALL of you to ponder on. Adrian compiles information and gives his interpretation on scripture, principles and doctrine, which in full disclosure I happen to agree with most of his views but not all, and that's OK. The blog provides a forum where we can discuss his views as well as comment with our own thoughts. We are all on individual paths and your path may be a little different than mine or anyone else's. Quite often I see in the comments on this blog someone that has an opposing view or question or further clarification about what was presented. Adrian or someone else is always happy to expound or clarify as they see fit. However, we are seeing more and more someone try and explain why their particular view is right or correct and attack Adrian's views or him personally in a way that comes across as belligerent and defensive. These comments remind me of Zeezrom trying to trap or ensnare Alma and Amulek. <br /><br />I'm not saying that people shouldn't disagree or bring up valid points in a search for truth but in this particular trilogy of comment strings I believe the line has been crossed from diligently seeking truth to back biting, fault finding and overall being filled with a spirit contention. I plead with everyone to cast this spirit aside and seek for repentance and to be filled charity. Judgment and pride are in full force here and there is no place for it in a Zion community, which after all, is what we are aiming for right? <br /><br />My point is this, if you don't agree with someone's view point and feel it may be of benefit to share your own thoughts by all means do so. We can all learn valuable truths from each other if done in an uplifting way. However, we must be wary of trying to "catch someone in a snare". There is no love in this. That is simply trying to elevate one's self above his neighbor. I believe that those who go down this path will have their reward just as the hypocrites of old. <br /><br />KevinAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10671444140820205683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-67438002257692192002014-12-19T10:09:49.238-07:002014-12-19T10:09:49.238-07:00The example of a fig tree is a great example. Wha...The example of a fig tree is a great example. What did Jesus do to the fig tree that bore no fruit? Matthew 21:17-22 It is interesting that "he hungered" and found no fruit to satisfy His hunger. <br /><br />Why have prophets if they don't prophecy? Why call seers if you never plan to show them anything? Why call revelators if you have nothing new to reveal? What did John Taylor mean when he said "Adam's revelation did not instruct Noah to build his ark; nor did Noah's revelation tell Lot to forsake Sodom; nor did either of these speak of the departure of the children of Israel from Egypt. These all had revelations for themselves, and so had Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Jesus, Peter, Paul, John, and Joseph. And so must we." I will concede the point that each of us should receive revelation for ourselves (the original plan for the Israelites before they demanded the Lord speak through Moses), but it is an interesting list of those he chose to mention by name since they all filled the classic role of prophets, seers and revelators.<br /><br />As far as asking the Lord, what would you say to those who have asked and the heavens remain silent? Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14806848698862693059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-63244033231588407032014-12-19T09:22:35.058-07:002014-12-19T09:22:35.058-07:00Christian,
That is a very good point.Christian,<br /><br />That is a very good point.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-70261195296113340042014-12-19T08:37:35.987-07:002014-12-19T08:37:35.987-07:00Brother Adrian-
It is becoming increasingly obvio...Brother Adrian-<br /><br />It is becoming increasingly obvious that you and everyone else who has posted comments on this site (me included), have differing opinions, interpretations, and philosophies about how to interpret given scriptures or historical evidence. For example there are several people who have commented about the scripture you quote in Matthew 7:20 “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” But for as many people who have commented, we seem to have just as many philosophies about what is meant by “fruits”… <br /><br />What is being taught? The philosophies of men (and women) mingled with scripture. I think we all know where that started and where that leads…<br /><br />So for now, instead of worrying about your philosophy, or mine, or anyone else’s, about how we chose to define things, let’s focus on the things that are not opinion. Let’s look at statements/claims you have made that are not true.<br /><br />As one example of this, under your post “Prophets, Part 1: Mommy, Where do Prophets Come From?” <br /><br />In a response to some comments made, you stated the following: <br /><br />“The idea that the current, living prophet is Joseph's equal, or that the President is the Prophet is a very new concept, first arising in the 1950's (NOT 1850's). Prior to that, "the Prophet" always referred to Joseph Smith. Nobody called Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilfred Woodruff, etc. "the Prophet." They were always the President.”<br /><br />This is NOT true. <br /><br />In the April 1880 Conference Report, Elder Franklin D. Richards, who was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles from 1849-1898, and President of the Quorum from 1898-1899 refers to Brigham Young as “the Prophet” when talking about the “Buchanan War” (aka Utah War). <br />https://archive.org/stream/conferencereport1880a/conferencereport151chur#page/48/mode/2up/search/prophet<br /><br />Also, in that same conference, Elder Moses Thatcher, who was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles from 1879-1896 refers shares a VERY strong testimony that John Taylor is a Prophet, Seer and Revelator. <br />https://archive.org/stream/conferencereport1880a/conferencereport151chur#page/98/mode/2up/search/prophet<br /><br />These are only two examples, but obviously show that your statement that “nobody” called anyone but Joseph a prophet until the 1950’s is just not true.<br /><br />-A fellow seeker of truth.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-57519434406360645232014-12-19T02:02:04.289-07:002014-12-19T02:02:04.289-07:00A barren fig tree remains a fig tree. Apple trees...A barren fig tree remains a fig tree. Apple trees in winter remain apple trees. A prophet who does not prophesy remains a prophet. A prophet who does not prophesy can be known as a prophet through inquiring of God as to whether he is a prophet.<br /><br />I feel I have put this clearly enough that if truth were the issue the point would have been conceded. Therefore I begin to wonder what the real issue is. What do you have against asking of God whether the sitting leadership are prophets, seers, and revelators, even in the absence of prophesying, visions, and revealing?<br /><br />From where I'm sitting, the only rational answer that occurs to me is the worry that God might say "Yes," they are prophets, seers, and revelators, even if they indeed bear no fruit. But if God calls them prophets, seers, and revelators, how are you damaged? How is anyone damaged by God telling them the truth?<br /><br />Incidentally, you are to be commended for posting my comments; I recognize that I am taking some hard shots at your position.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-28010044538308632682014-12-19T01:49:42.090-07:002014-12-19T01:49:42.090-07:00Brother Larsen,
I can make a scriptural case that...Brother Larsen,<br /><br />I can make a scriptural case that the baptism by fire is THE testimony of Jesus. See, for example, 3 Nephi 11:35. I do not know that there can be another scriptural case which can be made that anything else is THE testimony of Jesus.<br /><br />While I am open to the idea that the angel speaking to John might have meant something else - it is possible - it is hardly an open-and-shut case against the argument I would make. Indeed, scripturally speaking, it's a weak case, consisting of assertions only.<br /><br />And it gets weaker - to the point of falling apart, in my view - when we remember that Joseph asked the Church to acknowledge the twelve as prophets, seers, and revelators - suggesting that Joseph took the same view I think can be established relatively firmly from the scriptures.<br /><br />Now, I don't like it, really, because it has the effect of collapsing the distinction between saint and prophet. But there it is.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8665085267750808287.post-47036158888179957232014-12-19T01:41:59.246-07:002014-12-19T01:41:59.246-07:00Unfortunately, Brother Larsen, I cannot agree that...Unfortunately, Brother Larsen, I cannot agree that we are coming at the same thing from both sides.<br /><br />Your position, unless I am utterly mistaken, is that without words to judge by, a man is no prophet - and there is no need to pray over it, and, in fact, if one prays one is in violation of what you claim is Christ's commandment in testing for false prophets.<br /><br />If I have misunderstood your position, I would gladly be corrected.<br /><br />My position is that words are not required. If there are no words to judge by, the Lord is able to make the truth of the matter known through sincere prayer.<br /><br />I agree Joseph displayed all the gifts publicly. That's not the point I am addressing. The sole point I am addressing is whether the current Brethren can be known to be prophets or not, even in the absence of "Thus saith the Lord"s, and in the absence of firsthand testimony of Christ (as opposed to dogmatic statements sans explanations which pass as "testimonies" in the Church today).Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.com