Sunday, December 9, 2018

You Might Be Listening to a Deceiver if...

Examine me, O Lord, and prove me. Try my reins and my heart, for your loving kindness is before my eyes and I have walked in your truth. I have not sat with vain people, neither will I go in with deceivers.
—Psalms 26:1, OC

A good friend brought me a bottle of wine from a 5th-generation winery, located in Nauvoo, Illinois. I opened that bottle for sacrament today. Now, I’m no wine expert, nor am I particularly a wine lover, but I do know enough about wine that I can tell good from bad. And I can unequivocally say this wine was the worst I have ever tasted. It smelled like a mixture of cleaning products and petroleum lubricant. It tasted even worse than it smelled, with a distinct acetone nose and kerosene finish. A few other brave souls at the sacrament meeting tasted it, made faces, and agreed it was ghastly. It was so much worse than other wine that some were concerned it might even be dangerous to drink. 

I poured the rest of the bottle down the sink and hoped it didn’t destroy the plumbing. We ended up using different wine for the sacrament.

Afterwards, we had a group discussion on the Savior’s warning about false Christs and false prophets. “By their fruits ye shall know them,” said our Lord, teaching us to expect and discern deceivers. Only at the end of the discussion did the irony of the wine hit me. The worst fruits I’ve ever encountered, at least in wine, descended from Nauvoo through five generations. By their fruits indeed…

Here We Go Again

Though I’ve written about this many times before, current events have convinced me a timely reminder is in order, regarding false prophets, false Christs and deceiving teachers. Because I’ve already written about this topic, I’ll keep this kind of short and direct. Fuller discussions can be found in the following, previous posts: 


I also highly recommend these posts from Denver Snuffer:


Now, for some general reminders. Let’s start with Christ’s words:
For in those days there shall also arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch, that if possible, they shall deceive the very elect, who are the elect according to the covenant. (Mark 6:4 NC)
From our Lord’s statements, we know the following with absolute surety:
  1. There ARE false Christs and false prophets in our day. If you can’t identify them you will most certainly be deceived by them.
  2. They show great signs and wonders, and thereby deceive, if possible, the elect according to the covenant. 
  3. Therefore, if you’ve accepted the covenant, you will be targeted. You should expect it. (I’m aware of those who actually do, specifically, seek out those who have accepted the covenant—and then seek to lead them away, down other paths. I believe this directly fulfills Christ’s prophecy.)
  4. The Lord taught us to know the deceivers by their fruits. (Matthew 3:46 NC) This means we both CAN and MUST discern truth from error. We must judge in the Light of Christ (Moroni 7:3 NC) We should rely on scripture as a standard to measure all gospel truth. (Jacob 5:8 NC, Alma 10:5 NC)
Now, with those things in mind, here are a few reminders about judging the fruits of those who claim to speak for God. In the style of Jeff Foxworthy, we’ll go with, “You might be listening to a deceiver if…”

You might be listening to a deceiver if…
They convince you to listen to them by telling you that you’re special, chosen, more spiritually in tune than others, more intelligent, better prepared, or any other flattery that makes you worthy of their message when others aren’t.
You might be listening to a deceiver if…
Their message then gratifies your pride and convinces you they were correct about you.
You might be listening to a deceiver if…
They preach in secret, perhaps in the middle of the night, rather than declaring their message  openly and publicly as true prophets generally do.
You might be listening to a deceiver if…
They produce signs and wonders based on feelings and emotions, then tell you these are proof they are telling the truth. Even powerful feelings are NOT necessarily a sign of truth. Remember, the Devil has power to produce signs to deceive you. 
You might be listening to a deceiver if…
Their message is based more on their private revelations, spiritual experiences, and ideas than on scripture. If their claims of secret “higher” knowledge or power cannot be tested by scripture, or if they teach a body of knowledge that is outside scripture, beware.
And whoever treasures up my word shall not be deceived. (Mark 6:8 NC)
You might be listening to a deceiver if…
They are quick to share detailed and intimate descriptions of the content of their visions, revelations, or visitations.
You might be listening to a deceiver if…
What they offer merely imitates what has already been offered by true prophets. This includes ordinances, covenants, and ordinations. Lucifer is capable and effective at imitating truth. 
You might be listening to a deceiver if…
Their message allows them to make claims about themselves or their importance, or to accumulate gratification, money, power, control, followers, or any other lust common to the natural man. 
You might be listening to a deceiver if…
They claim true prophets who came before were merely preparing the way for the allegedly greater ministry of the new claimant (who has yet to accomplish anything close to prior, true prophets.) Likewise, if they claim a true messenger of God secretly vouches for them, approves of their ministry, or works with them behind the scenes, but the true messenger will not admit as much publicly, beware. Remember, John the Baptist (who was a true messenger) vouched for, testified of, and pointed his followers to, the greater prophet, Christ, and he did it publicly. 
You might be listening to a deceiver if…
Their claims of power, authority, or knowledge are based only on visitation with beings beyond the veil or knowledge from a supernatural oracle to which they are privy. Remember, Sherem acknowledged being misled by the Devil, who also appeared to, and deceived Korihor. Lucifer came to Moses, claiming to be Christ, but Moses was not deceived. Scripture is the reliable source. Angels and spiritual gifts are ALL subject to corruption and deception.
You might be listening to a deceiver if…
They claim they can offer you another, special, covenant from Christ. (There is only one valid covenant active on earth right now. All else is imitation and deception.)
You might be listening to a deceiver if…
They claim they can give you in one night what generally takes years of devotion, sacrifice, and growth to obtain from God. 
You might be listening to a deceiver if…
Rather than bringing you to repentance and humility, their message convinces you that you’ve arrived, are worthy, or will definitely receive God’s favor.
You might be listening to a deceiver if…
They encourage you to accept the teachings of other, known deceivers. 
And finally, you might be listening to a deceiver if…
They have no fruit of their own to show. Anyone can go about making claims and preaching whatever they want. But very few have made the kind of consistent effort and sacrifice that produces fruit. 
As Examples: 

Joseph Smith produced the Book of Mormon, inspired corrections to the Bible, hundreds of written revelations, the Book of Abraham, the Lectures on Faith, and 14 years of teaching, preaching, living what he taught, and sacrificing for it. He ultimately sacrificed his life for it.

Likewise, Denver Snuffer has written a dozen books constituting millions of words, well over a thousand blog posts primarily expounding scripture, dozens of public addresses, talks and speeches, numerous lengthy papers with hundreds of footnotes, new revelations, new scripture, and the restoration of a legitimate covenant from Jesus Christ. The movement among those who believe what he has taught has subsequently produced the most correct and complete set of scriptures available on earth, as well as extensive other initiatives and efforts to remember and continue the restoration of the gospel.

Have the other deceivers, who claim to have knowledge and power superior to Joseph Smith or Denver Snuffer, actually done anything even close? Where are their fruits? What have they produced or accomplished, other than making self-aggrandizing claims while circling the flock and picking off unwary sheep? How ironic is it that they rely on the fellowship locator and conferences of this movement to find their targets, rather than inspiring a movement of their own? 

Ultimately, each of us must judge for ourselves. Truth cannot contradict itself, so when contradiction comes, we must make a choice. The gullible and foolish will be enticed away from the rod of iron into forbidden paths, which is unfortunate, but also necessary. Zion cannot be built by people who lack discernment or a “firm mind in every form of godliness.” I can write and try to persuade, as can others, but in the end, the fearsome responsibility of discernment rests individually upon each of us. Eternity hangs in the balance. Be not deceived.

Hearken, O you elders of my church, and give ear to the voice of the Living God, and attend to the words of Wisdom which shall be given unto you, according as you have asked and are agreed, as touching the church, and the spirits which have gone abroad in the earth. Behold, verily I say unto you that there are many spirits which are false spirits, which have gone forth in the earth deceiving the world, and also Satan has sought to deceive you that he might overthrow you.
—T&C 36:1

26 comments:

  1. "Likewise, Denver Snuffer has written a dozen books constituting millions of words, well over a thousand blog posts primarily expounding scripture, dozens of public addresses, talks and speeches, numerous lengthy papers with hundreds of footnotes, new revelations, new scripture, and the restoration of a legitimate covenant from Jesus Christ."

    There is a flaw with this idea. If you look at what Joseph Smith, himself, wrote and published it is quite small. Almost everything has the names of others on it, even The Lectures on Faith. It is true, I believe, that he is responsible for a great many more wonderful teachings oou there, but those only came about to public view after he died because many of them are people personal accounts from journals or minutes from meetings. How easy, in those days, would have been too be of Joseph because all he had was one book to his name (and you'd have to actually read that book with an intent to know truth to get any truth from it).

    Sure Denver has written many things and given many public talks and compiled a set of scriptures, and offered a Covenant, but that doesn't make him any different than any of the current leaders of the LDS church. Not attacking, that's just a fact. So, what would make him different? The spirit of God.

    The spirit Christ they carry with them. THAT is the fruit which is good to look for. The number of books, it how many followers, it what type of clothing, car, or house they have are all worldly measures and will give you worldly results.

    The spirit of Christ is a soft sprit. Strong, piercing, yet completely unassuming. It will never force it's way into you and when rejected will wait until asked back to return. Because it is unassuming it takes much searching to find things it. This is GOOD because once you find them you are responsible to live themt The spirit of Christ is ONLY interested in the salvation and care of Fathers children. Everything will be based on that. There is NO room for self gratification, but much room for complete joy. The difference is your hot comes only from the success of others. The Savior sank himself down to help to lift everyone, even those who he knew would spit in his face. The spirit Christ will have you do the same. That is the fruit. That is what the entirety of the scriptures are about. So we can get an idea of how to DO just that. He is the way, meaning we are to walk in his ways.

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    1. Perhaps I inadvertently gave the impression that the volume of fruit is the qualification to look for. It is not. The Book of Mormon alone is enough to judge Joseph Smith's fruits and qualify him as a true messenger (and, I'll add, one of the most significant prophets in the history of the world.) Beyond that, his other revelations and scriptural offerings are extremely significant and must not be so easily dismissed. Therefore I disagree that his fruits are small.

      With that said, though, I agree with you that others produce large volumes of work, by which they must be tested. Of course, if there are no fruits, only grandiose claims and secret teachings, there is nothing to judge.

      My point in noting the volume of fruits, is that numerous deceivers in play right now make impressive claims, but have no fruit to judge. Others have produced material, but it is primarily about themselves, their opinions, or their claims. Yet others charge money to teach what they insist came from God.

      Those who have actually put forth what they claim came from God do us a favor, by giving us something to judge. Only then can we test the spirits, compare with scripture, take the matter up with God, and make a correct judgment. True messengers will point to Christ alone while insisting on their own insignificance.

      Fruitless claimants can be safely dismissed outright.

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  2. Adrian:
    That's a great list. I would add, they take you away from the Covenant God has made with "his people" at this time him as though they had a parallel alternative path back to God.

    McKay

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  3. Thanks for this post and reminder Adrian. This happened to be a big part of a discussion held with some of our fellowship yesterday as well. Amazing how the Lord reminds and warns us all.
    thanks!

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  4. A&C paragraph 2: “Since the days of Adam I have always sought to reestablish people of covenant among the living, and therefore have desired that man should love one another, not begrudgingly, but as brothers and sisters indeed...”

    “Fruitless claimants can be safely dismissed outright”

    We feeling the love yet?

    Perhaps not so safe to dismiss a “brother” or “sister”. Perhaps the only thing to safely do is actually love them, which MIGHT not involve pulling our hair out trying to figure out if they are trying to deceive us.

    The percentage of people one thinks is trying to deceive them is a reflection of that person, not others.

    I think your post very wisely pointed that out Adrain.

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  5. Adrian,

    I'd admit that you've made some very very good points in regards to discernment in the above post such as it wouldn't be something done in the middle of the night. The Lord worketh not in darkness nor in secret combinations. Also flattery being a common technique.

    On some level I'm pretty naive and I don't keep up with the drama of the movement nor do I keep up with who makes what claims. If someone made a weird claim I'd probably just chuckle a little and see amuzement in it.

    However I've noticed a lot of these posts recently seem to really focused around deceivers and the claim that they have gifts. The only part that concerns me really is that looking at the focus on those who make claims seems to villify those who are like that in general. Those who have gifts. I'm not saying you directly said any of that but that's how it appears.

    I tend to run in the crowd that are what people would call "sighted". For example my pyschic friend who is a grandma near 70 years old was born that way. Connected to other realms, across, above and below. She's been useful in ways. She's tracked down dead corpses for the FBI, said things to me that caused me to repentance and ask God to help clean me up, etc. I don't see someone like that as an enemy but as a friend.

    Likewise, on one hand I find it weird of people share too much stuff and in weird contexts but if I have a dream and I feel that there is a message for me to understand I have a friend that I'm going to call that has a photographic memory of the scriptures and I will ask him to help me understand and we will open the scriptures together. I would have no regret sharing something like that with that type of person.

    Some of the post I don't understand because angels when they come tend to focus on the message of repentance and I don't see the badge of honor in bragging that a being called you to repentance. Then as well when a being from the other side teaches they tend to quote and expound scripture. It's kind of all the same. It's not really something to be scared of.

    So I guess what I'm asking is clarification on went you are intending by your focus on this? Although you probably have much more insight of the drama that goes on behind the scenes. I tend to not get out a lot.

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  6. Adrian,

    I also would like to offer a perspective that not everyone that is wrong is out right decieved but failed to ask God for further understanding.

    Denver once spoke of 3 levels that we attain to in this life of getting information from above. I forget what he labeled them so I'm going to use the words that I describe them by.

    1. Knowledge (Someone at this level gets dreams, visions, knowledge and experiences from God, angels, revelations, etc)

    2. Wisdom/Understanding (At this level they realize that God speaks so much in parables and that they need to continually pour through what God has given and give supplication, further prayer and study into what God was telling them so that they out everything into context)

    3. A Teacher/Proven/Someone who is Sent (I know of one person that I would clasify in this area that lives today. I consider Jesus, Moses, Joseph Smith etc as peoope that were sent. These people were proven and had an actual power.)

    So like it is when Jesus was on the cross. He simply turned to John and spoke about Mary and said, "Behold your Mother". He didn't literally mean that John needed to re-enter her womb or any weird shit but in a parable sort of way was saying l, "John , please take care of my Mother"

    Likewise today God could tell a married man who has an abundance, "Behold your wife" in regards to another woman and once again it's a parable to give out of his abundance. Not permission to do weird shit. The scriptures would add clarification there.

    And a man with level 1 knowledge could jump into some weird stuff without having level 2 understanding nor seeking it and fail. I'd adventure to say that most people getting experiences with the other side are infants spiritually and at level 1. They could be deceived on some levels yes but on other levels just rushing out without understanding which can be dangerous and it's rushing the pass.

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    1. I’m confused about your comment here, where you claim that God could tell a married man, behold your wife, and be referring to another woman.

      This definitely sounds deceptive. Can you clarify?

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    2. Yeah sure. I used an extreme example. Please see past it. But my point was that there is more to spirituality than whether you are communicating with God or communicating with the devil. Although to Adrian's credit he pointed out the grey when he's mentioned angels possibly having their own agenda. I mesm one of highest ranking of them fell.

      So my point was mainly that as the scriptures teach we are to know God and when Jesus was on earth he spoke so much material in parables instead of directly saying what He meant.

      It's a verv infant stage of spirituality if one assmues everything is literal and that Jesus/God doesn't speak in parables any more. It's actually the more go to.

      Another example, A man or woman could have a dream where they think they saw last days events and they were in them. A flood of water came, an earthquake happened etc. Adrian pointed out once on a blog post about Jerusalem fever or something like that about people going pyscho when they go to the Holy Land thinking they had a calling.

      Anyway, God could literally show them a dream like that and it could be very symbolic of other things. One that doesn't further pray for insights and has an out of check ego might get that Jerusalem fever and think that they are playing a central role full filling prophecy. Yet a more wise experienced person may pray for insight and learn that a wave of emotions is coming and that the foundation they are on is going to quake and tremble and that it was a forewarning from God that is going to soon symbolically play out soon. Thanks for asking clarification.

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  7. Dang it I misspelled your name
    Adrian in my previous post. I apologize for that.

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    1. Not to worry! It happens so often I don't even notice!

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  8. Hi Adrian,
    Thanks for the reminder. Truth is a funny thing. Everyone cannot discern it. It is a double edged sword that cuts both ways and divides asunder. It basically divides. Because I have seen how damaging it is to reject truth or a true messenger, second hand, not myself thankfully. And we hear so many ideas and speculations on our path, I have learned to file information in buckets in my head. One is truth verified by the Spirit, one is possible truth but needs further proving, one is hmmmm, interesting I’ll wait until I can find something else that aligns before giving more credibility, and the garbage file. I love to hear others ideas, but I don’t take anything into myself until it is vetted by the Spirit, a true messenger verified by the Spirit, and scripture. I think if we fear hearing new ideas we can damn ourselves. I am not a scriptorian, but I have a good barometer of discerning truth inherently. I often do not quote scripture, but I have the scriptures sort of ingested into my inward parts so to speak. If there is one thing I dislike, it’s rejection out of fear. I never fear learning more truth. I am open and honest so sometimes I offer whatever is on my mind at the time and it could seem personal or inappropriate to some. When I read the above list, I would put myself in probably every category at some point or the other as most of us could as well, if we were honest, even if unintentional. And sometimes it’s difficult to provide background or scripture references in a limited timeframe depending on the venue. The best way I have found to stay straight with the truth is to cleanse the inner vessel, receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and listen to the voice of the Lord or promptings of the Spirit to stay in alignment with all truth, our Holy Savior and Redeemer Jesus Christ. He will make course corrections when necessary. Just some thoughts. Thanks, Lisa

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  9. A timely and vital reminder, Adrian. Here two days after you posted your collection of Jeff Foxworthy-style observations, Denver Snuffer posted a curious note on his blog describing how a couple of Canadians, Joseph Rockwell and Dean Taylor, sent emissaries to Mr. Snuffer’s office with a short message for him in the language of scripture. In line with the reasoning in your post, Snuffer says he rejected the message commanding him to stay out of the Canadians’ way because of their fruits. They promote polygamy among other things, which Snuffer believes is an adulterous practice forbidden by God. He told his visitors the spirit of their message was false and thus he absolutely would not obey the purported commandment.

    Whether you agree with Denver Snuffer or not, his experience is an example of putting Christ’s rule of thumb to judge by one's fruits in action. I’m personally grateful Denver Snuffer shared with us. Your post is relevant to me for the same reason, Adrian. I’ve heard reports of these same men laboring to persuade folks in the remnant movement—both in America and Europe—to follow them and their beliefs. In a universe based on agency, Rockwell and Taylor get to preach whatever they like. God wouldn’t even stop them were they to claim they were Jesus Christ himself. Remarkably, scripture alerts us not only to false spirits in the last days, but to false Christs. The good news is we get to choose as we will. Believers in Jesus Christ will be well served by judging by the fruits.

    http://denversnuffer.com/

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  10. A good movie that comes to mind is Catch Me If You Can. Based on a true story, Leonardo DeCaprio’s character becomes a world renowned forger. Through looking the part, he becomes a doctor, lawyer, and piolet. His claim to fame was the counterfeit checks he created stealing millions from the companies he knocked off.

    Ultimately, he was able look the part and then become the part. When he looked the part, no one seemed to take enough time to question. If they took time to think through it and see the holes in his story, he could have been discovered much sooner.

    Our biggest problem with being deceived is our naivety. Being naive is about experience, observation, knowledge, and zeal. When we are naive we aren’t experienced with wrestling between truth and error. We don’t observe what is behind the suit. We don’t have sufficient knowledge to see the light from the darkness and we zealously think things must be done in haste.

    “A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world.” TPJS, p. 217.

    Being naive is often mistaken as a virtue of trust or faith. It is not. It is not a character strength, but a weakness. It will get you beaten up by the monster at the pass. Being naive will get you caught by some unseen power who isn’t interested in you or your salvation.

    The best remedy is to be like Mormon and be sober. A sober mind doesn’t allow others to catch them in their ignorance.

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  11. Denver’s experience brings up a couple of points where knowledge is key. In speaking of polygamy, I was reading Jacob 1 paragraph 4, yesterday in the RE of the Book of Mormon. It was clear to me that polygamy was and is a wicked practice and is abominable to God. Yet how many accept that The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS was justified in participating in such a practice. Satan likes to lull us away into carnal security. I can’t tell you how many people I spoke with, telling them it was a way to get women safely across the plains out West, portraying wickedness as righteousness.

    Not to mention compusion, when it is used, now I immediately think of it as an evil practice. The glory of God is intelligence or light and truth. A man is not saved in ignorance. It is to all of our benefit to arm ourselves with truth and light in warfare against the adversary. In my above comments, I was addressing general conversation between fellow believers striving to accumulate truth.

    Denver’s example portrays the evil that exists when error is taken to a whole other level. We do have to be on guard because when we reject truth, evil spirits will know more than we do and consequently will be able to take us down to hell. That hell can just be a deep sleep, preventing us from rising up. Either way we are damned. Denver said in his commentary that he recognized the false deceiving spirit was trying to gain authority over others. Satan always uses our ignorance as a tool to overpower us. Good reasons to cloth ourselves with the truth of the scriptures, so we will instantly be able to detect such ploys and put them in their place, and give no heed to them. It goes in the garbage file.
    Just readdressing comments to be more applicable to the purpose of the posting. Apparently these guys are making the rounds.
    Thanks, Lisa

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  12. Polygamy is one of the top anti-Christ ideas I can think of. Specifics of why that is so is yet to be fully realized or understood.

    Denver doesn’t just believe this is an adulterous practice forbidden by God, it IS literally an adulterous practice by definition and condemned by God.

    Some claim this is a celestial practice and we aren’t “prepared” for it, but that in some “higher” kingdom it gets introduced. That,also, couldn’t be further from the Truth.

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    1. Your conclusions are based on faulty thinking. I don't fully understand it either but it is interesting that the promises made to the House of Israel come via Jacob who had children of four women. Perplexing no doubt but still a chosen people to bless the whole earth.

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  13. Path one:

    If abused, fire back at your “adversary.” You are right after all, and he is a deceiver. You can see the lies and falseness in him.
    Your adversary doubles down. The volleys back and forth continue. Eventually it comes to blows and bloodshed, misery and annihilation.
    Death.

    Path two:

    Bless your adversary. Find middle ground. Do good to them. Dwell on pleasantries. Your adversary softens. You come to understand him and why he thinks as he does. You respect his beliefs even though you don’t adhere to them. Eventually, your love for him transcends what you both believe. Doing things differently, you come together in peace, creativity and love.
    Life.
    Zion.

    Which path are you walking?
    Which path ought you to be walking?

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  14. As polygamy has been brought up I have a question that has bothered me. First let me state I do not believe in polygamy and do no.t believe Joseph was a polygamist. However when I look at the scriptures I find that Abraham and Jacob had multiple wives yet we look to them as Fathers in Heaven. Just looking for any insight others migh.t have

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  15. Hello Curtis,

    Great question. Perhaps there is more here than some consider. Maybe it’s best to use the newest and most pure revelation to understand the oldest. Look at the Answer to the Prayer for Covenant for the correction to the D&C section regarding this topic. You’ll notice mention of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. You will see mention of two women in relation to each of them: 1 being a mother companion, and 1 being a female counterpart. Perhaps we underestimate the corruption of the scriptures, especially the oldest, that has been done at the hands of corrupt men. Christ mentioned in the Answer to the Prayer for Covenant that even the Book of
    Mormon still has errors but that there was “beauty” in the language given to Joseph. And the Book of Mormon is “most correct” and it has errors? The only reliable source to dig out the Truth to the answers of your very sincere and good questions is Jesus Christ. He will teach you using the least corrupted scriptures and the discernment of the Holy Ghost to lead you on the path for Truth and the answers you seek. I wish you well on that noble quest brother.

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  16. I think your list is great. Taken together, we can veritably discern a deceiver. Of course, the Holy Ghost is the final arbiter. But some of these items on an individual level may be more related to ignorance than deception. Paul (as Saul) comes to mind. Even after his conversion, it probably took time before he was the great missionary we see in scripture. For a time, he was likely a babe without knowledge but with pure intent.

    How many of our brethren and sisters fit that category? We must also discern to allow for their growth in Christ, despite lacking knowledge, and those who are true deceivers.

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  17. You might be listening to a deceiver if...

    This so called prophet produces a revelation or new scripture which blatantly contradicts the JST of the Bible or any other previously revealed scripture.

    Or if this person makes comments like, "Everything I say I have on good authority, if I'm merely expressing my opinion I will say so."

    This is setting oneself up as a light for others to follow and therefore priestcraft.

    The scriptures say that a true prophet will say, "thus saith the Lord" before speaking for God, not say or imply that everything he teaches is from God unless he specifically says it isn't.

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  18. Is it true that Denver drinks wine? What is his take on wine?

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    1. As far as I am aware, Denver uses wine for the sacrament.

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  19. Adrien, what is the Remnant's view on wine or alcohol?

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    1. I don't speak for the Remnant, but as for myself and many of the people I know, the Word of Wisdom applies, as written. The word of wisdom approves wine for sacraments (plural, I might add), and has language that approves mild barley drinks (beer.) Distilled spirits are spoken against, and to be avoided. And it is given as good advice, not commandment. That's all how the revelation reads. I can't think of any good reason to apply it in some other way that is not spelled out in the revelation.

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Hey everyone,

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