Wednesday, October 12, 2016

Fairy Tale Fails

What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols? Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it.
—Habakuk 2:18-19



Elder Jeffrey Holland, when bearing his testimony, is fond of culminating with an emphatic statement similar to the following: “I have not devoted my life to a fairy tale!” This is really a powerful way to phrase it, which is not surprising for Jeff. The man has a knack for turning a phrase.

So what defines a “fairy tale?”


Dictionary definitions include “a children's story about magical and imaginary beings and lands,” and “a fabricated story, especially one intended to deceive.” This got me thinking…which led to the realization that, really, almost all religion consists of fairy tales. Don’t pretty much all religions teach about supernatural, or “magical” beings? Don’t they all deal with places that exist only in the imagination?


But wait, there’s that “fabricated” part. What if the stories are true? What if the magical beings and imaginary lands actually exist? Well, that’s where it starts to get interesting. And that’s why I said “almost” all religion consists of fairy tales. If you happen to have true knowledge about things that actually exist, well then, my friend, you don’t have a fairy tale. You have truth. And it can save you. The trick is to know when you have truth and when you simply have a “fabricated story…intended to deceive.” Because…

…there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. (1 Nephi 14:10)
If you learn and obey truth, you are part of the group Christ refers to as His church. If you believe ANYTHING else, you are in the other category. It’s pretty straightforward. Truth saves. All else is fairy tales.

This week, I watched people ritually wash, burn incense, throw coins, and pray in sincerity to stone statues, sometimes leaving an offering of food or drink. As I watched, I considered the role of religion in human existence. In my travels, I’ve observed a number of major world religions, and what fascinates me most is that the majority of them hold so many elements in common. In general, most religions consist of beliefs to explain the following:



  • The nature and purpose of life
  • The origin of the world 
  • The origin of humanity
  • Belief in the unseen supernatural or divine, including good and evil forces or beings
  • Belief in a god or gods, as well as a devil or demons who directly interfere and intervene in human life.
  • A connection with or responsibility to ancestors who are dead
  • Behavior and rituals required to please or appease diety, often involving purification to alleviate the effects of misbehavior or unfavorable events
  • Expectation of favors or blessings for in return pleasing diety, often including health, wealth, love, luck, success, better circumstances, or whatever else one desires.
  • Consequences for failure to please or appease diety, including punishments, loss of favor and blessings, uncleanness, etc.
  • A belief in some sort of life after mortality, with favorable or unfavorable circumstances contingent on performance in this life


These common elements exist in the vast majority of religions, and seem to be part of the universal human experience. We hunger for explanations, meaning, purpose and direction. Whether we pray to a stone statue for rain, or to Jesus for money, the underlying principles hold. Though the answers and explanations differ, the universal hunger and need remains so deep seated and closely held that millions will kill or die in the service of their unseen gods, believing such behavior curries favor with the divine. We take our fairy tales VERY seriously.

Even in societies too “civilized” to kill each other over religion, we still find shunning, punishment, anger, fear, and hatred when adherents encounter someone who simply believes a different set of stories than they do.


And yet, the stories all exist to answer the same universal questions. Hugh Nibley referred to these as the “terrible questions” by which he meant the most fundamental perplexities of human existence. “Where did we come from? Why are we here? Where are we going? What is the purpose of life?” Which set of stories you prefer ultimately doesn’t matter if you don’t have the correct answers to these questions. For an entire generation, the marketing message of LDS mormonism focused on LDS answers to these questions.


And that’s where Joseph Smith comes in. Beginning as a fourteen-year-old boy, he somehow had the unique ability to see past the commonly accepted fairy tales and find the real thing. Therefore his religion is unique in the modern world, and rare in world history. I summarize Joseph’s unique teachings thusly:



  • God is not unseen; I have seen Him. 
  • God is not unknowable; I know Him. He is a real person with a real body who exists in a real place.
  • The purpose of life is to make humans into gods—not some unknowable, effete spirit sort of dead-ancestor god, but real, living, breathing physical beings who dwell in a family connection or kingdom of gods, in a physical place.
  • And perhaps, most important, you DO NOT have to accept these things merely on faith. You can know them by personal experience. You can and should meet and converse with these divine beings. You can and should meet and know God personally. He will speak with you; he will teach you these things himself.


This principle ought (in its proper place) to be taught, for God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what He will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them, for the day must come when no man need say to his neighbor, Know ye the Lord; for all shall know Him (who remain) from the least to the greatest. (TPJS 149)
That is an absolutely revolutionary set of teachings, and it flies in the face of nearly all other world religions, where the gods remain unseen and unseeable, unknown and unknowable, forever the objects of blind devotion or horror until death ends the mystery of the great unknown. Joseph made the astounding claim that these not only AREN’T fairy tales, but that you can obtain actual, physical proof for yourself, as he did.

Unfortunately, we don’t much believe what Joseph taught anymore. Instead, the religion he founded has been hijacked, and revelation has been supplanted with tradition to bring great wealth and power to some few, while requiring the masses to pay, pray, and obey, but never expect to experience what Joseph did. Like all other religions, it has simply devolved into fairy tales, requiring a lifetime of blind faith and ignorant obedience to receive an undefined favorable outcome in the unknown afterlife. This is most certainly NOT the religion Joseph taught.


Much has changed since Joseph lived, and falsehoods have turned truths into myths. We have intentionally and unintentionally added “fabricated stories…intended to deceive.” Here’s an illustration:


On the Autumn equinox in 1823, Joseph Smith went to bed and besought the Lord in supplication and prayer. In response, an angel visited him in his bedroom. Throughout Joseph’s life, and in at least 4 direct, written accounts, he specifically identified that angel as “Nephi.” But somewhere along the line, after Joseph’s death, someone wrote “Moroni” to replace Nephi. The change stuck, the history became a myth, and now a golden statue named “Moroni” tops most LDS temples. The LDS church continues to tell the false story that Moroni visited Joseph Smith on the night of September 21, 1823, even though the historical information that has come to light—and is published by the church—clearly demonstrates the error. (See here, here, here (page 753), and here (page 53).


But in the end, does the identity of the angel really matter? It seems a small error, really, and doesn’t much change your quest for redemption. Does it?


I’d like to suggest at least three reasons why something even as seemingly insignificant as the angel’s identity matters.


1. Resurrection


The identity is significant because it bears directly on understanding the gospel principle of resurrection. Nephi and Moroni lived a thousand years apart, at opposite ends of the Nephite dispensation. Between their lifetimes, Christ performed His mortal mission and attained to the resurrection of the dead. Nephi was resurrected at the time Christ was, and therefore appeared to Joseph as a resurrected being with a body. Moroni lived hundreds of years after Christ and therefore has not yet been resurrected. If he appeared, it would have been in spirit form only.


Joseph’s detailed explanation of the angel’s appearance therefore properly applies to a resurrected being, and not to a disembodied spirit. There was a physical being with a physical body standing in the air above the floor in Joseph’s bedroom. The fact that Nephi had a body would have been necessary to his ability to handle physical things in this world, like the gold plates. Nephi’s visit provides us the vital information that resurrected beings come here and minister, foreshadowing John the Baptist’s later visit, when he laid physical hands on Joseph and Oliver.


A proper understanding of the resurrection is indispensable to understanding the gospel. In fact, Joseph grouped it with what he termed the “first principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”

The Doctrines of the Resurrection of the Dead and the Eternal Judgment are necessary to preach among the first principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. (TPJS 149)
By corrupting the angel’s identity, we fundamentally impair understanding, not only of the resurrection, but also of the covenants and connections that govern early resurrection, embodying Nephi in flesh while Moroni yet waits for that opportunity. These covenants and principles have become largely lost to us, and we therefore fundamentally misunderstand the “first principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”  A “small” error in identity has major ramifications.

2. Altered Records


Joseph’s records were altered after his death. In the Joseph Smith papers, you can see the alteration, where someone wrote in Moroni’s name. There is no explanation as to who did this or why, but the record has undeniably been altered.


Since this is the case for something as seemingly insignificant as a name, what happens when even more significant records have been demonstrably altered? Such is the case with polygamy, where Joseph’s clear and ardent teachings against the practice, were altered to promote polygamy.


Those who made this alteration in the written record attempted to turn their adultery into something sanctioned by God and taught by Joseph, and by so doing, they led thousands into significant error and gross sin. By altering Joseph’s words, they showed contempt for God, who said:

Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith. (D&C 21:4-5)
The records were changed to establish a false tradition, which is a nice way of saying “a fairy tale.” Will you continue to believe that fairy tale now that you have more reliable information about what Joseph actually taught?

3. In a Corner


In each case, faced with clear evidence that Joseph’s teachings have been altered, the LDS church has been required to make a choice: Admit the error, correct it, and move forward more closely aligned with truth, or double down and continue teaching the false tradition as if the real records simply don’t exist.



The trouble is that the false tradition also claims that the prophet, and by extension the church, cannot lead you astray. Therefore, any concession and error correction would also be an admission that the prophet and the church do indeed make significant errors, which admission would threaten the power structure built on the foundation of the false tradition. Sadly, because of this “all or nothing” facet of the tradition, the majority of those who discover errors, walk away from it all—concluding that Joseph Smith, Jesus Christ, God the Father, angels, demons, and the rest are all just fairy tales. When it’s “all or nothing” many simply check the box next to nothing, and head off into atheism. Secular humanism becomes their new preferred set of stories. This is the most pernicious result of the all-or-nothing fairy tale.

The LDS church has painted itself into a corner. They—quite literally—rely on church members’ ignorance to keep the organization staffed and funded, and the leadership in power. They know they teach fairy tales, and hope to keep doing so, because admitting error is unthinkable, and produces disastrous results.


But reliance on ignorance doesn’t work so well in the information age. The truth is readily available and easily accessed. Many cherished LDS stories are turning out to only be fairy tales after all. The transfiguration of Brigham Young, the seagulls and locusts, false quotes from Joseph Smith, manufactured modern revelation…the list goes on. Here’s another one—and a quite important one—that has recently come to light:


Joseph’s Final Charge


It’s a well-known and undisputed historical fact that the original twelve LDS apostles were never ordained by Joseph Smith, and therefore could not claim, as Brigham Young attempted to, Joseph’s authority by virtue of the apostleship alone. The continuation of Joseph’s gifts, keys, and authority is, of course, foundational to the current LDS church claims to authority, which is a problem if you can’t quite explain how other men got what God gave to Joseph.


The narrative that solves this problem is now known as the “final charge.” The story goes that in March, 1844 Joseph Smith met in council with the twelve and gave them all the ordinances, keys, covenants, endowments, and sealing powers of the priesthood, and that he rolled off onto their shoulders the responsibility to lead and govern the kingdom of God on earth. Various accounts of this meeting exist, though it was never mentioned until well after Joseph had died and the twelve needed a way to claim Joseph’s authority.


The trouble is that the minutes of those meetings are now available—and they tell no such story. Neither do contemporary journal entries of those in attendance. There’s no indication anything particularly significant happened at all. But as with other fables like Brigham Young’s transfiguration, the tale has gotten better and better through the years, until various versions have Joseph glowing as he spoke, threatening the twelve with damnation if they failed, and jumping up and down, clapping like a schoolboy as he rejoiced that he was off the hook as the only one carrying God’s authority.


Such is the tradition by which the LDS church claims rights to Joseph’s keys, powers, gifts and position. The historical record indicates it never happened. The church insists it somehow did—and thus the leaders must be obeyed and believed, even as they teach tall tales opposite what Joseph taught. Like I said, they’ve painted themselves into a corner, and they believe their only option is to double down on the lies, telling members not to look too closely, nor ask too many questions.


In other words, we ain’t gonna see a press release any time soon—not about Nephi, not about polygamy, not about Joseph’s final charge. We’ll just see more sound bites and general conference memes, pushing platitudes as if they had power to redeem. Those who point out the truth in the LDS church’s own published materials will continue to be accused of trying to “destroy faith” by telling you the truth.


And in the end it comes down to a question of truth. Joseph taught truth, including the reality of God and the opportunity to know Him. Others have traded truth for fairy tales, and continue to not only teach them, but insist you not question them. Do you want to hitch your wagon to that? Are you loyal to truth or to something else?


“I have not devoted my life to a fairy tale!” 


I’m sorry Jeff, but you have. We all have in some way or another. The Book of Mormon goes to some trouble to warn us against believing “the traditions of our fathers” when those traditions have no foundation in truth. That’s not the issue. The issue is how we respond when the traditions are unmasked as false.


Turn to God and alter your view to align with truth—this is the appropriate response. In fact, this is the very definition of repentance. It doesn’t matter if you used to believe a fairy tale; it matters how you respond when confronted with truth. If you refuse to change course, your heart is hard. And it will damn you.


It’s one thing to believe ignorantly, but once you see the written proof of the fabrication, will you still prefer tales over truth? Is it worth knowing what Joseph knew, and experiencing what he experienced? Or are you satisfied throwing a few coins, making a wish, and praying to gods of stone?


And so this brings us back to where we started. The religion of Joseph Smith—which is the religion of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Enoch, Elijah, Nephi and Jesus Christ—brings men into literal contact with Gods. It worked for ancient believers. It worked for Joseph Smith. It has worked for people now living who can testify first hand. God wants it to work for you, as well.


If your chosen set of fairy tales doesn’t produce this result, then it matters not if you pray to a stone, a cloud, an elephant, or an emperor. Though your need for fables may be satisfied, your soul never will be. Nothing but actual knowledge of truth can adequately fill that void.


Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands; And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away. For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel.

—3 Nephi 21:17-20

191 comments:

  1. Two items to quibble about:

    "Moroni lived hundreds of years after Christ and therefore has not yet been resurrected. If he appeared, it would have been in spirit form only."

    "In the Joseph Smith papers, you can see the alteration, where someone wrote in Moroni’s name. There is no explanation as to who did this or why, but the record has undeniably been altered."

    These comments to not adequately account for Joseph's (authoriship uncontested) statement in Elders’ Journal, Vol. 1, Number 2, pages 28 and 29:
    "Moroni, who deposited the plates in a hill in Manchester, Ontario County, New York, being dead and raised again therefrom, appeared unto me, and told me where they were, and gave me directions how to obtain them. I obtained them, and the Urim and Thummim with them, by the means of which I translated the plates; and thus came the Book of Mormon."

    Denver Snuffer explains how this statement does not forcibly mean that it was Moroni who appeared to Joseph to get the things started, but merely states that Joseph is explaining that Moroni was involved in leading him to the plates.

    The key info in this statement is (1) Joseph states that _Moroni_ (no confusion this time) is "dead and raised again therefrom". And (2), this Elder's Journal is passage is referenced in the manuscript alteration. (see the bottom of the page) The alteration may be not have been justified (Nephi and Moroni were both involved, not mutually exclusive, etc.) but saying there is "no explanation as to who did this or why" is incorrect. They may have been wrong to do so, but the alteration was an honest attempt to square two of Joseph's (seemingly) incongruent statements, and instead of supposing that both Moroni and Nephi appeared to Joseph in different capacities, they consolidated into one.

    So I'm not taking down your premise here, but asserting that (1) Moroni was not resurrected and (2) there was no explanation for the alteration simply ignores a portion of the historic record of Joseph's actual statements.

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    1. Hi Anonymous,

      Thanks for bringing this up. The correct page numbers of the cite in Elder's Journal are actually pp. 42-43.

      As to your points: Does "dead and raised again therefrom" necessarily mean resurrected? Or can it merely mean one who has returned in spirit form?

      You are correct that there is a note in the handwritten manuscript. It does not reveal who made the change, though it does provide the sources whoever made the change felt justified it. The point is that Joseph consistently identified the angel in his room as Nephi. Whoever changed it was misinformed. It's a simple enough mistake, and perhaps even justifiable, but a mistake nonetheless. My point is that the error should be recognized, admitted, and corrected, rather than perpetuated.

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    2. Great post. Not sure if this comment is a quibble, but at least a question.

      You said, "The identity is significant because it bears directly on understanding the gospel principle of resurrection...
      By corrupting the angel’s identity, we fundamentally impair understanding, not only of the resurrection, but also of the covenants and connections that govern early resurrection, embodying Nephi in flesh while Moroni yet waits for that opportunity."

      Isn't it possible that Moroni, and Joseph Smith, for that matter, have been physically resurrected? With God anything is possible, and the First Resurrection has already commenced. Alma stated in Alma 40: "...whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it matterth not...time only is measured unto men."

      But generally, I don't find my understanding of the resurrection inhibited by the identity of that angel. Your two other points are far more significant, to me.

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    3. I see your point Underdog, but I don't believe Joseph has been resurrected yet. He hadn't been when the graves were dug up and moved in 1928. I have it on good authority he still has not.

      There are laws governing the resurrection we don't yet fully comprehend or appreciate.

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    4. I highly doubt that resurrection requires the actual matter of the original body. What about the countless number of people who have been cremated, or whose bones have crumbled to dust? Aren't we all just reconstituted dinosaur, after all? As if people who have their ashes scattered can't be resurrected...

      It's an interesting issue to consider, and I have no clear answer, except to say that I believe Joseph could be resurrected while the original skeleton continues to decompose in its grave.

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    5. Hi Julie

      As far as I understand, at resurrection, we “take up our body” we do not get a new one. Our earthly bodies are just refined by the resurrection. Christ did not get a new body, he still had his original DNA etc, just purified and refined as a resurrected being.

      The following is my understanding about the resurrected body.

      D&C 93:33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and the spirit and elements, inseparably connected, received a fullness of joy: 34 And when separated, man cannot received a fullness of joy.

      D&C 131:7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes, 8. We cannot see it but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

      As we learn in the temple, he Lord and Adams created the world using matter or elements that already existed. They used existing matter and just organized it.

      It is my understanding that since the actual “matter” or “elements” that formed our bodies are eternal, those elements will be united at our resurrection. Even if a body is destroyed by fire, the elements still exist. The body’s destroyed elements still exist in a different form and will be organized again.

      In other words, the individual DNA and the elements that make us so individually unique are never destroyed... we will “take them up again” and be purified with a resurrected body. A new body with new elements will not be created.

      Like Adrian, I don’t believe Joseph Smith has been resurrected because he has not “taken up his body” if it’s still in the grave. Nor is he a translated being... or there would be no body at all. (Translated beings are subject for another day.)

      If I am wrong with this understanding, I would like to hear another point of view.

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    6. Here's a comment Denver made on the matter:

      http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2012/07/a-few-details.html

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    7. Thank you Adrian for this link.

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  2. Well done Adrian! One of your best posts, and that is saying something because they are all worth reading. If you run into my best friend Cory Mecham in Eagle, Idaho tell him hello.

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  3. Very well done. There's a LOT more items in church history that when properly researched will start to fall apart for the LDS church.

    Like what happened at Morely's Farm in June 1831 and what "angelS" had given Jospeh the priesthood by his own account.

    Also Adrian, are you suggesting that everyone who died after Jesus isn't resurrected? Like you are with Moroni? What about Peter and James when they met up with John?

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    1. Yes, that's what I'm suggesting. As for Peter and James, the record only states that they were "declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times!" This would not require a physical body.

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    2. This is also what I believe as well. And it gives greater evidence to the fact that John the Baptist was indeed a restoring a lot more when he restored the "Priesthood of Aaron".

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  4. I enjoyed this Adrian and I am grateful for the questions raised and your thoughtful responses. I would like a reference about people not being resurrected after Christ. It would help everyone see what you are saying here. Thanks for all your words and work.

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    1. Some passages and quotes that inform us as to how and when resurrections happen.

      •“Two great resurrections await the inhabitants of the earth: one is the first resurrection, the resurrection of life, the resurrection of the just; the other is the second resurrection, the resurrection of damnation, the resurrection of the unjust. (John 5:28–29; Rev. 20; D. & C. 76.) But even within these two separate resurrections, there is an order in which the dead will come forth. Those being resurrected with celestial bodies, whose destiny is to inherit a celestial kingdom, will come forth in the morning of the first resurrection. …
      “‘And after this another angel shall sound, which is the second trump; and then cometh the redemption of those who are Christ’s at his coming; who have received their part in that prison which is prepared for them, that they might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh.’ (D. & C. 88:99.) This is the afternoon of the first resurrection; it takes place after our Lord has ushered in the millennium. Those coming forth at that time do so with terrestrial bodies and are thus destined to inherit a terrestrial glory in eternity. (D. & C. 76:71–80.)

      “At the end of the millennium, the second resurrection begins. In the forepart of this resurrection of the unjust those destined to come forth will be ‘the spirits of men who are to be judged, and are found under condemnation; And these are the rest of the dead; and they live not again until the thousand years are ended, neither again, until the end of the earth.’ (D. & C. 88:100–101.) These are the ones who have earned telestial bodies, who were wicked and carnal in mortality, and who have suffered the wrath of God in hell ‘until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.’ (D. & C. 76:85.) Their final destiny is to inherit a telestial glory. (D. & C. 76:81–112.)

      “Finally, in the latter end of the resurrection of damnation, the sons of perdition, those who ‘remain filthy still’ (D. & C. 88:102), shall come forth from their graves. (2 Ne. 9:14–16.)” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 640).

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    2. Quoted from Denver Snuffer's Plural Marriage talk:

      When the mother of two of Christ’s apostles asked Him if her sons could sit beside Him in the kingdom of heaven, Christ explained that positions in heaven would be assigned by His Father, for it is His family to organize. In the end as we approach the final judgment, a family will be reassembled by God and sealed as members of His Family. Their membership in God’s Family is not merely ceremonial, but it is necessary for their exaltation. Without it they cannot greet the returning Lord as their King and Father. There may be a great multitude of others who are saved, but they are not part of the Family of God, and receive according to their status. These others will have their robes made white, but are not identified as part of the Family of God. There will be a difference, as the scriptures testify.

      This affects not only the quality, but also the timing of resurrection. In the last revelation I received on the subject, I recorded:

      “It has puzzled me how the Lord could go to visit the dead, the dead could greet the Son of God in the Spirit World where He, “declared their redemption from the bands of death. Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy,” (Doctrine and Covenants 138:16-17) on the one hand; but Christ did not go to preach to the wicked, instead, “from among the righteous he organized his forces and appointed messengers clothed with power and authority and commission them to go forth.” Therefore, the very SAME spirits who rejoice at the deliverance from the grave were left in the grave and it was by them “was the Gospel preached to those who had died.” (D&C 138: 30-32). I had wondered how they could be raised from the dead and yet remain to preach to the dead.
      
“After inquiring about this matter diligently, I have learned that when the Lord declared the resurrection, He did not resurrect them. He assured them it would come, but comparatively few were resurrected with the Lord at the time He came forth from the grave.

      “This then puzzled me to know who, then, was taken from the grave, as recorded in Matthew 27:52 (“Many of the bodies of the Saints which slept, arose”) and prophesied by Samuel and confirmed by Christ (3 Nephi 23: 9-13). Who arose that were called “many Saints” by both the New Testament and The Book of Mormon.

      “I was shown that the spirits that rose were limited to a direct line back to Adam, requiring the hearts of the fathers and the hearts of the children to be bound together by sealing, confirmed by covenant and the Holy Spirit of Promise. This is the reason that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob “have entered into their exaltation according to the promises and sit upon thrones and are not angels but are gods.” D&C 132:37.

      “The coming of the Lord in the future will not bring an immediate resurrection— just as the resurrection of Christ did not empty the world of spirits of even the righteous dead. Those who will be prepared at His coming will remain comparatively few still. Hence, the great need to turn the hearts of the children to the fathers, and the fathers to the children—and this too by covenant and sealing through the Holy Spirit of Promise.”

      According to Joseph, the only way in which this kind of a welding link could be accomplished was in a temple. Not the temple built in Kirkland, but something different, never completed while Joseph and Hyrum still lived.

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  5. It's also interesting to note that Brigham Young was never set apart to be the president of the 12 apostles. He was in England and they had a unanimous vote and that was it. HC 4:115-116

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    1. Nor was Brigham ever ordained President of the church, as I understand it. Again, just a vote.

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  6. It is sadly true, as you said, that the most pernicious result of the all-or-nothing fairy tale is that many LDS, who discover errors, head off into atheism. I wonder how many have adopted secular humanism as their new religion.

    I do know from first-hand experience that LDS missionaries are being heavily indoctrinated in the fairy tale known as "Joseph's Final Charge". I've been at the link you provided where the various quotes are gathered.

    The missionaries are being trained to rest their case of the current apostles having authority on the Wilford Woodruff quote.

    I just spent the last hour at http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/NCMP1820-1846/id/8375/rec/6 reading pages 648 - 652 of the Times and Season Volume 5 in Sept 1844, less than 2 months after Joseph's murder.

    There is a record of Sidney Rigdon's trial. I'm not a history buff and this is my first time looking at original documents, but in those pages Rigdon states, "there will be a good many churches build up all over the world". Hyde: "Would these churches be subject to one common head?" Rigdon: "No they would not." Young: "then there will be many bodies." Rigdon: "Oh no!". Hyde: Where there are many heads, there is no head at all, a thing that has many heads must be a hydra- a monster." All of this on page 650. You see the contrast being a CENTRALIZED leadership, and one DECENTRALIZED. Very interesting juxtaposition! Denver teaches a decentralized model where ALL ideally have authority under one Head. I wonder if Rigdon had that in mind?

    Rigdon states that he has no authority or jurisdiction over the Twelve or the people of the Church, and that only Joseph holds the keys (pg 651). Hyde replies if Joseph still has the keys in death, how were any of them to "get by Joseph into the celestial kingdom of God"?

    A main takeaway from Denver for me is that NO MAN stands in the way of salvation. It's between me and Christ. And yet there is this powerful focus on "keys" in the LDS Church.

    Clearly the question in Sept 1844 was one of authority and jurisdiction, and because this was the question, they had to have an answer.

    It does APPEAR to be a matter of historical record (on pg 651) that within 2 months of Joseph's death, Orson Hyde did quote Joseph as saying back in April of 1844 that, "Now if they kill me you have got all the keys, and all the ordinances and you can confer them upon others, and the hosts of Satan will not be able to tear down the kingdom as fast as you will be able to build it up."

    This appears to be the EARLIEST quote I can find with a little research.

    Which begs the question: if keys can be transferred from man to man, and not exclusively and strictly from God to man, then when were those keys "lost"? The claim of authority by the LDS Church does go back to that supposed quote of Joseph Smith that he gave the keys to the Twelve.

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  7. All of your studying and careful research and yet you seem to be missing the big picture. God has already factored in every evil act that men do and He weaves it in for His purposes. There must needs be opposition in ALL things. ALL things. Yes, even the most precious truths will have their opposing counterparts. So you can quote contradictions and mistakes about every seemingly major issue or small tidbit of minutia until you run out of breath. Do you think that if the LDS leaders do as you believe they ought to that some other barriers and confusions would not replace those ones? That's not how this life was designed. It's a test. Opposition is built in from the foundation. You do not seem to have come to grips with this fact yet.

    You have discovered many hidden truths and important insights. Your research and analyses are all well and good but ultimately they won't lead you to the promised land. You have to step back and think more broadly about what God has done and is doing. I don't see evidence that you have done that yet. You are still wading through the analytical exercises.

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    1. Anonymous,

      What evidence do you require from Adrian to show that he has "taken a step back and thought more broadly about what God has done and is doing"? That's what his entire blog does!! What exactly are you looking for?

      Your comment doesn't really make sense when you speak in ambiguous generalities. Please give concrete examples of where Adrian is wrong in the content of what he is writing. Without examples, your opinion carries no weight. Persuade me otherwise.

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    2. My post, in short: one can be good at detail, and yet can't see the forest for the trees.

      Ironically, you ask about detail. You are evidently caught on the same treadmill. You are asking the wrong questions, so any answers, although interesting, say little. The topic under discussion might as well be the price of tea in China for all the relevance the speaker's suggestion bears on it. Maybe he could provide some searing insights on the corruption or ignorance of tea traders that drive prices? But to what end?

      Step back and look at the big picture, see the forest. God has everything under control. No one did, and indeed cannot, overthrow or thwart His purposes. Ever. See what God is doing.

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    3. I’d agree with your championing of the big picture, Anonymous. Anything less is each of us taking the parts of the blind men of Hindustan attempting to define an elephant in terms of the individual parts of the animal touched by each of them.

      But until God grants each of us the grand vision of all experienced by Moses, Joseph Smith and many of the teachers in between, we’re necessarily left with learning line upon line in bits and pieces. It’s all we have in this toxic, telestial place. Until we see every soul, every particle of every soul and every particle of the entire earth and all the earths, we’re necessarily confined to bits and pieces. Until we, like Jesus Christ, share the mind of God, we’re left with bits and pieces.

      To fault Adrian or CherryAnn for not teaching the mind of God or grand vision of all doesn’t convince me of much beyond your personal preference for the big picture. Jacob in the Book of Mormon marvels at how unknowable God is, how utterly unfathomable he is unless he reveals himself to us. If Adrian, Denver Snuffer, Jeffrey Holland or Jesus Christ himself attempted to teach the vision of all would anyone understand it or benefit from it? The Book of Mormon is full of instances where God instructed the writers to withold information from the record for some godly purpose. Joseph Smith told folks that they’d kill him if he told them everything he knew. Personally I’m eager to learn what I can, where I can, from whom I can. If you have a blog or a book I’d be happy to explore your beliefs further.

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  8. Anonymous,

    You don't seem to recognize the 'power' of words and the impressions and meanings they impart. When you change a word you change the 'impression'...

    Though the Lord factored in the evil that would corrupt, hide, destroy the truth and cause many to stumble, He also knew He would have special servants who would be sent here to expose these wicked things.

    You say rightly there would be wicked opposition to righteousness, but this in no way ties the Lord's hands to also send righteous opposition to the wick opposition.

    D&C 123

    12 For there are many yet on the earth among all sects, parties, and denominations, who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, and who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it—

    13 Therefore, that we should waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness, wherein we know them; and they are truly manifest from heaven—

    14 These should then be attended to with great earnestness.

    15 Let no man count them as small things; for there is much which lieth in futurity, pertaining to the saints, which depends upon these things.

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  9. So I gather Adrian, that you feel the evidence for Joseph's final charge would be found in the Council of 50 minutes. Could not this charge have been made in the more spiritually focused Anointed Quorum? I'm simply curious if there's more explicit information consisting of when this took place?

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    1. The editors of the Joseph Smith Papers believe the meeting took place on 26 March 1844, in the Council of Fifty. They give their reasons for selecting that date. They also state the following, regarding the "Final Charge":

      "A significant event likely occurred in this meeting, probably in the morning session, about which the minutes are silent but which council members discussed a year later in connection with a written summary prepared by Orson Hyde."

      Orson Hyde is not exactly a trustworthy source, as he also wrote two eyewitness accounts of Brigham Young's transfiguration, though he wasn't even in Nauvoo at the time. It appears he was willing to say whatever it took to prop up the claims of the twelve, and his claims about the "Final Charge" are therefore quite suspect.


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    2. As I think about the question of where "Legal Authority" resides, my mind invariably goes back to DC 121, where the Lord talks about ONE LESSON we must learn, which is:

      36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

      37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

      38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints (like Denver and others), and to fight against God.

      The word "keys" is not mentioned here. But does it need to be? If I were to pick one word in our Mormon vocabulary that has been used for the evil purpose of mass manipulation of the masses, it would have to be "keys". It's a powerful word, and little understood.

      It's easy to say "I have the keys", or "so and so has keys so RESPECT the key holder!" That admonition reminds me of Satan's temper tantrum in Moses 1:19:

      "Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me."

      Mind you, Moses had just commanded Satan to get lost. He had measured Satan and found him wanting. His discernment was correct, and the one rejected, Satan, didn't leave without an argument.

      In essence, he shouted his last attempt to convince Moses, "I have the keys of salvation, hearken unto me! Worship ME".

      He appealed to AUTHORITY.

      Orson Hyde made this appeal. B. Young did too. The modern LDS apostles all do the same. He famously jingled his keys when visiting a museum in Copenhagen, Denmark in 1976. Elder Packer tells the story at https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2008/04/the-twelve?lang=eng where Kimball testified "I hold the keys." Was Kimball telling the truth?

      And yet, we have DC 121.

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    3. So Adrian, in your opinion, what does it mean "to HAVE the keys" and what does it NOT mean? What seems to be in error is to DEMAND respect by virtue of holding keys.

      To me, it's odd that Christ warns gravely against practicing priestcraft but then on the other hand, He encourages priestcraft by bestowal of keys on a man. He says, "don't do it," but then says, "HE has the keys". Isn't that odd?

      In DC 121:37, will any TBM debate that "the keys" are excluded from "they" in "That THEY may be conferred upon us, it is true"?

      I believe ALL Mormons will certify that "the keys" are absolutely INCLUDED in the word "they" in verse 37. The Lord teaches that when unrighteous dominion is employed in ANY degree, "Amen to the priesthood or the authority [OR THE KEYS] of that man."

      What does all this mean? Does it mean that the debate of the Final Charge of Joseph Smith is 100% moot?

      How does it matter if it's true or not that Joseph bestowed "keys" upon the Twelve before he was murdered?

      I think it DOES matter, but I'm not sure I can explain why. DC 13 says "the keys...shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness."

      Keys ARE important. Authority IS important. Things bound on earth are bound in heaven because of "the keys" (Matt 16:19).

      I think it's reasonable to state as a truth that one man may have "the keys" but that the keys may come and go, being that they "are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven." When Father Lehi was murmuring due to affliction, perhaps he had them, but were "they" active? Is any imperfect man who is a true prophet, actively using "the keys" ALL OF THE TIME?

      So by this reasoning, it appears that one may HOLD keys, but not actively be using them in righteousness. "For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift?" (DC 88:33).

      Nephi in 3 Nephi 11 was given the keys publicly. But then he and ALL other prophets are warned to not practice priestcraft. It appears it is UNAVOIDABLE to give keys to man. And therefore it's virtually unavoidable to practice priestcraft.

      God says to not practice it, but then creates the very situation that will likely cause priestcraft. Thoughts?

      Joseph warned the saints' minds were being darkened by depending on him too much. Is there no way for God to avoid creating the situation for priestcraft?

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    4. Finally, I would say that virtually everybody claims to have the keys.

      Joseph Smith did.
      John the Baptist did.
      Brigham Young did.
      The current LDS hierarchy does.
      Denver Snuffer now does, and those who claim the authority to baptize.
      And many other Mormon and non Mormon sect leaders claim so.

      It's an ongoing situation in the world, to have so many voices claiming to have the keys. Joseph describes the situation as creating "no small stir and division amongst the people, some crying, “Lo, here!” and others, “Lo, there!” Some were contending for the Methodist faith, some for the Presbyterian, and some for the Baptist."

      It is a given that there will be many voices.

      So the ever-present challenge is to discern God's voice. And then once His voice is discerned and heard through a prophet, we must avoid idolatry and he must avoid priestcraft.

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    5. Excellent questions, all, Underdog. What if, instead of being some sort of magic beans passed from one mortal man to another, keys are knowledge? Joseph Smith taught that demons could get the best of us in worlds to come if they possessed more knowledge than we. See what happens when you replace the word, "keys" with the word, "knowledge" in the scriptures and Joseph's teachings. The idea fits well with this post. That he would refer to it repeatedly suggests that Elder Holland is possibly concerned that his supposed keys are just the equivalent of magic beans, that his worldview is held in place by what he and his fellow apostles tell themselves about themselves. Moses' experience of being tutored by the Lord for several hours then confessing that he, Moses, was "nothing" should put us all on notice!

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    6. Underdog and Patty, along with Adrian you all have made truth visible ... Nice. We are all so blessed to have Truth among us to be verified by the Spirit.

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    7. "Keys" are not "authority" or "power," though the LDS church has attempted to make them into such. As long as we labor under the mistaken notion that keys put someone in authority over someone or something else, we will get it all wrong.

      Patty's definition of keys as "knowledge" is much more accurate. This makes quite a difference in the whole discussion.

      Those with the right kind of knowledge are capable of accomplishing certain things that those who lack the knowledge cannot.

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    8. Patty's insight was very helpful. Thank you Patty! That makes a huge difference in understanding the usage. I've been laboring under a false tradition up till she shared that insight.

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  10. Thank you for this post, Adrian. Well explained.

    Why do you feel that Moroni has not yet been resurrected from the dead? What was the alteration made in the Elder's Journal manuscript?

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  11. Underdog: The saints' minds were darkened because they were depending upon Joseph, period. Not depending too much, just depending. So you are to give heed to the words of eternal life coming from a prophet, but you are not to depend upon him. Quite the razor's edge.

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  12. About the keys. John Taylor once stated that the 'keys' of the priesthood were the 'tokens' which enabled us to pass from one kingdom to the next. Interesting stuff.

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    1. And what are those "tokens"? Are they not knowledge, knowledge that we present to the "angels"? In the endowment, symbolized by Masonic-style symbols? Perhaps the whole issue of keys, tokens, etc, is nothing more than symbols and metaphors for the knowledge we need to learn to be able to be like God and live in his presence.

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    2. Understanding that 'knowledge', at least the kind we need ... is actually what we become in 'connecting' with the Savior, and not really facts or even understandings. In the NT on a couple of occasions Christ uses the term "know me" or "knew you" as requirements for being His. This knowledge was well explained by Bob Norman at the Doctrine of Christ Conference in Boise last month. So gaining knowledge isn't just about a learning kind, as in James we are also taught that many are ever learning but never coming to the Truth. In the D&C we are taught that whatever 'intelligence and knowledge' we gain here will rise with us in the next life. But we already had all the knowledge of this earth before we came. What we lacked was the 'knowledge' that would 'greatly enlarge our souls'. The being born of God or receiving the mighty change is what I believe this 'knowledge' to be. What is the mighty change? Knowledge or being one with Christ.

      So when speaking of tokens being the keys of the priesthood (the priesthood being the power and authority in the Lord) the passages such as the one found in D&C 121:45 enlightens us on this subject. I don't think John Taylor totally understood what he was saying above. I think he thought the passing from one kingdom to the next was a journey in the after life. It is really a journey here in this life. It is a passing from one 'state of being' to a higher state of being. It is passing from a telestial kind of person to a terrestial then to celestial kind of person in character, in power and authority in and through Christ. Righteousness in and through Him.

      I am not so sure I have not muddled this further. I have more in my mind and heart than I am capable of rendering in words.

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    3. that james reference was wrong... it is actually here:

      2 Timothy 3:7
      7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

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  13. My experience with "the incorrect traditions of my fathers" was very profound.

    About this time last year, I had my faith crisis. It was terrible. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. It came after about eight years of studying our secular history (JFK, 9/11, WWII, etc, etc, etc) and coming to the realization that most of we think we know to be true really isn't.

    But never in a million years did think this would apply to the gospel. I believe the Lord had prepared for me by opening my eyes and mind to other falsehoods first.

    One day a friend forwarded me a post from "Pure Mormonism" (which I had never heard of previously) and I quickly went down the Rock Waterman rabbit hole. Pretty soon it was undeniable that the institutional church had lost its way. And I was lost, too. Being faced with the prospect that my entire life was a lie, I spiraled. I was depressed, angry, sad, anxious, confused. I couldn't sit still or rest. I was on was edge for three days. I had a physical, burning sensation in my chest that was extremely unpleasant. It didn't hurt, but it was uncomfortable. As I sat there on my couch on that third night, as quickly as all that depression and anxiety came, it left. I was at perfect peace. The burning in my chest was gone. I knew God lived, Jesus is the Christ, the Book of Mormon is what it says it is and that Joseph is who he said he was. And that was it. Nothing about living prophets or so many of the cultural beliefs we accept as doctrine.

    What I've come to believe is that the burning sensation in my chest was God literally burning the incorrect traditions of my fathers out of me so that He could begin to teach me Truth (I don't think it was the Baptism of Fire because I'm still very prone to sin, but it was a first step). And He has. The Book of Mormon has come alive like it never has before. I'm sure there are some people who wish I'd shut up about it, but once you've feasted on the words, all you want is for everyone else to take a bite. (I highly recommend Royal Skousen's "Earliest Text" version - plenty of space for notes). I saw things I never knew where there, received answers to questions I didn't even know existed, understood new doctrines and principles I'd never heard in a lifetime of church membership, and I've been prompted to pursue subjects I thought I understood, but have since learned otherwise. It's incredible. If there were a monastery for Book of Mormon study, I'd be the first one there. His way truly is the better way.

    Now, instead of fearing the Truth and not wanting to know about the untidy and more unsavory aspects of our history, I actively search it out. If there's an LDS fallacy or falsehood, I want to know it so I can purge it. The Truth is liberating.

    My personal belief is the reason we have a dearth of revelation and prophesy coming out of the church (and generally among our members because we should all be prophets) is that most LDS, including the leadership, profess belief in things that simply aren't true, and as such our faith is rendered inert. As Alma said, faith is the hope of things which are unseen, which are true.

    I really like the idea that it was Nephi who appeared to Joseph. It makes sense, really. He was charged with establishing the righteous branch of Israel in the Promised Land in fulfillment of the covenant the Lord made with Joseph of Egypt. He would be the dispensation head.

    It seems like a lot of people are being inspired to clean this mess up. You've given me a lot to think about! Thank you!

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    1. Wow, Matt, thanks for sharing your experience and your insights. The Truth is liberating.

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    2. Matt,

      the one thing that resonates so strongly with me in what you have shared, is the over whelming desire to share the truth. thanks!

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  14. So you think you now have the superior knowledge, faith, inspiration, etc.? Have you ever really thought about the weight of responsibility that the LDS leaders bear? They are under tremendous pressure and have millions relying on them to carry out their stewardship. They must consider the broad array of trials and difficulties of millions---both in the present and yet to come long after you and I and they have passed. Their task is not trivial. Their decisions can have large impacts. Your individual specific needs within your limited path and short timeline are not the only ones they need to take into account.

    Or do you see it as privilege alone and personal ambition? What motives and knowledge or lack thereof are you merely projecting onto them? Moreover, what are their objectives? Do you really know? Or are you only speculating? Do you assume that they are ignorant of the issues you see as fallacy and falsehood? Why do you assume that? What makes you conclude that their actions are not both fully informed and at the same time the best for important objectives, such as ultimately redeeming the natural branches of the house of Israel? It's easy to criticize anything and anyone. Let's see how many positives you can sincerely attribute to them. Go ahead.

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    1. You say the LDS Leadership is "under tremendous pressure and have millions relying on them to carry out their stewardship."

      You may speak a truth of the collective body of LDS relying on their leaders, but that is a truth which demonstrates apostasy from the Lord and idolizing man or arm of flesh.

      In TPJS, it reads, "...Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel – said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church – that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls – APPLIED IT TO THE PRESENT STATE OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS – SAID IF THE PEOPLE DEPARTED FROM THE LORD, THEY MUST FALL – THAT THEY WERE DEPENDING ON THE PROPHET, HENCE WERE DARKENED IN THEIR MINDS, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves..."

      You say, "They must consider the broad array of trials and difficulties of millions---both in the present and yet to come long after you and I and they have passed.
      Their task is not trivial. Their decisions can have large impacts. Your individual specific needs within your limited path and short timeline are not the only ones they need to take into account."

      Really? That is a description of something the Savior would do! Time to look out for a golden calf?

      On the other hand, an inspired servant of God, King Mosiah, desired "that this inequality (you describe) should be no more in this land, especially among this my people; but I desire that this land be a land of liberty, and every man may enjoy his rights and privileges alike." Mosiah 29.

      You and the LDS Hierarchy have an elitist worldview, that salvation comes from the top leadership down. But that is a lie and of Satan.

      All collectivist governments have that attribute in common with you. THEY are the saviors! THEY will surely save every soul! It's insidious. That spirit is seen in Moses 4:1.

      King Mosiah repeats your sentiment, when he unfolded "unto them all the trials and troubles of a righteous king, yea, all the travails of soul for their people, and also all the murmurings of the people to their king; and he explained it all unto them. And he told them that these things ought not to be; but that the burden should come upon all the people, that every man might bear his part."

      The thought of wanting to save others is good, but the method and system is wrong. Man cannot save man. A ruling elite cannot save. All dictatorships sell themselves as benevolent. Collectivism destroys agency by creating inequality.

      Joseph taught and set up (DC 107) a DECENTRALIZED kingdom where the Twelve had no more authority than any stake high council.

      You have fallen victim to a most insidious philosophy of man mingled with scripture. King Mosiah and Alma and the Brother of Jared all testified this centralized model of government "leads to captivity" and inequality. Your own testimony describes perfectly the inequality that should NOT exist in the LDS Church. We all must take on the burden for our own sins and rely on no man.

      "Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another." JST 9:44.

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    2. Your hate for the LDS leaders blinds you. Instead of acknowledge the obvious burden that comes with stewardship, you attack a straw man about leadership bearing the sins of the people. You have evidently never been a leader of anything significant responsibility. You insult their sincere and selfless sacrifices for others.

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    3. Anonymous,

      I have a question for you. Though much of the church leadership (especially at the local level) is sincere and selfless in their attempts to serve the people, is it still possible for them to lead others astray?

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    4. CherryAnn,

      Yes, from a certain point of view, but not in the way you think.

      Leaders can make statements or take actions that cause immediate difficulty for others instead of bringing immediate clarity or resolution. We ALL have free will to choose and thus we ALL can make choices that we ought not to have made. Leaders included.

      But we need to step back to discuss an important underlying issue first. Then we will be able to see the question more clearly. There is a seeming puzzle at the root of your question: how can we (everybody) have free will and yet not frustrate God's purposes? If we are all free to choose good or evil at any moment, could the leaders not choose to send the church into chaos and darkness? Suppose for a moment that it is so. Then, by the same logic, could the devil not stir up men to make evil choices that overthrow the ultimate purposes of God as well? Can Satan win? Is it possible? If not, why not? What is it that keeps the two seemingly opposing concepts in check over the long run? How can we have free will and yet God's purposes not *possibly* be thwarted by that gift?

      But here's the critical piece of the puzzle. The very experience of life itself with each of us making our choices along the way already constitutes the success in and of itself. We each have been sent here at a specific time and place to interact with others and face a set of choices on that path that each of us needed to face. Our experiences in our life paths have been tailor-made for us. That applies to everybody, including the leaders. A choice they will make might present us with a choice we must make and vice versa.

      God already knew what we would choose because He knows us so well. God could have assigned us our final judgment before we ever breathed a single breath here and merely cut to the chase and it would have been just. However, this life is a gift for us. We get the gift of the experience. We will understand for ourselves what choices we made and that His judgment is indeed just and merciful.

      God has designed and interwoven our individual paths ingeniously so that His great truths would be available to us at this time if we were faithful enough to search for them. Greater and greater knowledge is both available, and at times, obscured by the very actions of the leaders through history. That's for a purpose. The truths are preserved for us to find, yet some are more challenging than others, often because of leaders' mistakes. That's baked in. The greater truths and greater light requires greater diligence and faith to grasp. As it should be. We are supposed to face these challenges. Each of us, at our various levels of progression, are supposed to seek greater wisdom and knowledge, and confront obstacles and exercise faith to overcome them. There is a test and challenge for everyone at every level.

      Continued...








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    5. ...

      This is not justification for their errors. Not at all. But taking them to task for the flaws we perceive in them misses the point. They are quite aware of the things I'm telling you and the problems of the past and present. Make no mistake about that. But they are acting appropriately for the grand design---as they obey. They have an incredible weight on their shoulders from outside---and unfortunately from within as well. But the outside threats are far greater. The correct choices they make are what matters to the church. Their errors are their own to sort out and answer for. They create needed obstacles we need to contend with.

      So, yes, they and you and I can err. But, no, they cannot lead others astray. Because we, individually, are always on the path that God has designed for us. It's up to us to show ourselves who we really are by the choices we make on that path. (God already knows.) The challenge is to exercise faith to our best ability on the path and the time we are given. God has everything under control. The leaders are doing exactly as they were to do in order for us to have the knowledge we have (scriptures, etc.) and the challenges (history, etc.) we have for our own progression.

      We can get into a situation of imagining some church organization that is somehow superior. We find flaws and mistakes and imagine how the leaders ought to root them out and when they should do so. If they were truly called of God, we tell ourselves, then they would take action on these things in the way and time we expect. Then we'd have the safety to follow along and sustain them effortlessly, we imagine.

      That logic is flawed. That's not how it works. Those who blindly follow along, whatever the context, are making a mistake---for themselves. That logic is based on a narrow and limited view. It's based on lack of the big picture. God knows what he is doing. If you study what I'm explaining more carefully, you'll realize that the statement about the 'prophet never leading the church astray' is simply a restatement that 'God knows what He is doing' but stated in a way to challenge you. Don't forget that we're taking a test.

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  15. Hmmmm. Anonymous ... take a deep breath and then consider this:

    Matthew 11:30
    30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

    If they are truly the Lord's anointed, He is carrying the burden with them and it isn't all that difficult. I have experienced this phenomenon. It really isn't difficult at all with Christ.

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    1. That verse does not mean what you take it to mean. Your interpretation, if correct (and it is not), would imply that all true followers of Christ have all the difficulties of life removed. That is a great insult to many faithful who struggle with all manner of physical, emotional, and spiritual ailments on their path in this life.

      I suggest you go study it again in context to disabuse your mind. That verse was a response to the people who were heavy laden with physical demands of the Pharisees many rules such as regarding Sabbath day activities. That was not a promise to the apostles and disciples that life was about to get easy for them. In fact, Jesus warned them that they would be persecuted and killed for their testimony. Your interpretation mocks their sacrifice as "not too difficult". Let's see you do it. Get some perspective.

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    2. So many issues with your response ... First, the verse I quoted is an eternal principle. I hope you know what that means. It is applicable in all times, ways, circumstances etc etc... that comes up. For instance, the yoke of Christ means that one takes upon His name, giving His interest in that life. This does not demand that all things in their lives would suddenly become easy.

      You have totally confused carrying the burden of His name/work with all of life's experiences.

      Think about the Book of Mormon story of Alma/Limhi people. They were being pushed with heavier and heavier burdens yet the Lord lightened those burdens. He didn't remove them.

      2nd, It can't mean all problems of life are removed. It would erase the purpose of this life, so the extreme idea you have put forth for one purpose only... is only to refute the scripture in the use I put it.

      These first two reason nullify the rest of your post.I will address the other extreme statements when I have time later.

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  16. Underdog pretty much covered it. Awesome!

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  17. Anonymous ~

    You stated:
    In fact, Jesus warned them that they would be persecuted and killed for their testimony. Your interpretation mocks their sacrifice as "not too difficult". Let's see you do it. Get some perspective.

    ~ Paul once stated that whatever his situation, he would be content. Here is the point and lesson:

    Philippians 4: 11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

    12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

    13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

    Christ doesn't just put a burden or yoke upon us and then leave it up to us to manage it. He actually stated: John 14:18
    18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

    When one is called of God, He (God) is totally involved.

    When hard times come upon us, giving up a prayer of gratitude and praise to the Lord is in order. Filling your heart with love and compassion for everyone on the earth also alleviates the feeling of a crushing burden because it connects us to the God of Love. In this connection there is a new perspective. In this new perspective, this world no longer has power over you. It literally feels like the burden has been carried for you.

    So, when the Lord stated that His yoke was easy and burden light, He was speaking to those who knew how to connect to His strength and no longer lean on the arm of flesh. Consider the passage in John that He is the vine and we are the branches. Chapter 15.

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    1. Your replies betray that you have not borne the responsibility of leadership. But try to imagine for a moment that you have accepted a position of leadership. Imagine that you fulfill your role with sincerity, humility, using all your energy. Imagine those who are having difficulty whom you try to serve with your words and actions in full sincerity and love. Now, imagine the many who criticize your every move. Who watch you for mistake. Who pounce on any perceived misstep. Who assume the worst of you and then use your perceived missteps as evidence for their allegations. Now try to satisfy those critics while at the same time attending to those who needed your help in the first place. Good luck.

      Delete
    2. Anonymous,

      I know it's hard coming to grips that there's a Matrix. Watch the movie if you haven't.

      I can give you dozens of scriptures which prophesy of latter-day leadership apostasy. I can list those, but won't.

      I'll stick to facts instead, that cannot be interpreted away.

      A question for you...If I give you several facts that even you would have to testify were true (because they are facts), would you agree to hear them?

      Keep in mind, the inescapable conclusion is that these leaders (or at least most of the top ones) cannot be ignorant of these things. They have to willingly participate in and perpetuate what is occurring.

      So I ask you, would you like to see these facts?

      And if you do, and under the assumption that even you testify they are true (because they are facts), would that change your mind?

      And it's not a strawman argument. You can make that argument I suppose, technically. I could too. But it's not. OD 1 declares they cannot lead us astray. That is pure anti Christ. If the leadership were so great, why excommunicate a man for a book, and try to keep him from giving 10 talks, why try to cover up so much that should be public? Why is there a Corporate Sole (pres of the Church) who controls 100% of Church assets?

      I slightly digress. I ask you, would you like to see these facts?

      Delete
    3. I'm very familiar with those scriptures and prophesies. I'm not engaging in a debate about those. I'm wide awake.

      But, you completely ignored my comments.

      I suggest you reread Job very carefully. Because to Job, the actions of God were very strange. God corrected Job and reminded him that he does not have the eternal perspective and designs at his grasp from which to argue about the small things within the big picture.

      You do not know the hearts of the LDS leaders. You do not know WHY they do what they do. You have merely inferred their motives based on your limited knowledge and understanding projected onto them. You can't see an alternative to the narrative you have imposed on them. Your view is very narrow and limited in both space and time.

      Regarding various excommunications/disfellowships. It is often not the message, but the method. There is a proper way and an improper way to go about disagreement. Actors on both sides can err. We are all human. It is up to us to humble ourselves and get over our egos of being offended and find a PROPER way to disagree. I suspect these statements will offend you, especially until you do the study I suggest above.

      You must get out of the weeds and see the big picture of what God is doing on the grand scale. God has designed things quite well. The problems you emphasize and have built into a mountain are all seamlessly being weaved into God's plan for ultimate success over the arc of this entire world. Step back for a minute and see what God is doing. Break free from the weeds that have you entangled in myopia.

      Delete
    4. Anonymous,


      I agree with you on one point. The facts of apostasy are "all seamlessly being weaved into God's plan for ultimate success."

      You said, "I'm very familiar with those scriptures and prophesies. I'm not engaging in a debate about those. I'm wide awake."

      I knew you say that so if you re-read my comment above, you'll see I specifically stated I would NOT quote scriptures because you would interpret them away.

      I said I would deal in FACTS.

      I asked you a specific question. Will you answer?

      I am still an active LDS and like Denver, I say I love the Church. I'm not going to get into a pissing contest about church leadership qualifications. Didn't Jesus chastise his disciples in Mark 9 when they had such a trivial argument. He taught them, rather, to "become as a little child". That is the greatest in the kingdom of God.

      I've noticed through many conversations with my fellow Mormons that they (in this case, YOU) refuse to deal with facts of plain-as-day apostasy. They don't want to hear or see them and when they do, they ignore them and do not bother to rebut them because they are obliged to testify they are true, indisputable facts.

      This trend apparently continues with you. I think it's a shameful trend.

      In general conference addresses years ago, I have heard Elder B. H. Roberts would speak of the accomplishments of Joseph Smith, and then, as if speaking to Joseph’s critics, he would say: “Match it! Match it, I say, or with hand on lips remain silent when his name is spoken.”

      Mormons used to be bold and would welcome and gladly take scrutiny. That is the Mormon I still am. But I am concerned I am now a decided minority.

      I embrace all truth. THAT is Mormonism. But now our ranks have been infiltrated by people like you who run from scrutiny, who are scared of facts. They don't want to hear truth when it's spoken to them in plain language (think Nephi here).

      So here we are. I'm prepared to share several facts which conclusively demonstrate apostasy at the TOP of the Church (think top of tree in Jacob 5).

      Will you agree to take your head out of the stand and open your eyes and see these facts?

      Or choose to remain blissfully ignorant? Which is it?

      Any other discussion is completely circular and pointless.

      Delete
    5. Anonymous,

      You are correct. We do not know the hearts of the LDS leaders. This is why the Lord gave us agency and the measuring stick by which to judge them. Speaking of true prophets, the Lord commanded "By their fruits ye shall know them." Period. We are to judge the fruits of our "prophets". If they are "good" (Godlike, pointing to God), then we know they are of God. If they bring forth "bad" fruits (point away from God) then we know they are not of God.

      It is imperative that we judge the matter correctly! What makes someone a "prophet, seer, revelator, and translator"? Their FRUITS are what give them those titles! Someone is a prophet BECAUSE of the message God has given them to share. It's not the other way around-- that someone ipso-facto is given those titles BEFORE they bear the fruits. Otherwise, how can we judge a prophet by his fruits if he doesn't have any? The presence of the test proves that there MUST be fruits to judge by.

      We call our general authorities "prophets, seers and revelators." Therefore we must see those fruits from them for them to claim the titles. Thus far, I have searched for their prophetic fruits and have yet to find any. They are men "called" into their positions by other men, not by God directly to them. They do not prophesy. They do not reveal new truths. They do not bring forth new scripture. Heck, they hardly even use or refer to the ones they already have! They do not heal the sick or exhibit any power over the elements. They do not know or testify that they KNOW the Lord. They do not consider themselves equals to the rest of the church membership. Rather, they point to themselves, quote one another, use focus groups to change church policy, teach and reteach the same talks about themselves over and over again, have re-defined the doctrine of Christ, changed the ordinances, exercise dominion over others, sit in plush red seats high above everyone else, and hide their finances from those who are paying them in exchange for saving ordinances. They use the thithes of the poor to build up Towers of Babel to get to God, and large shopping malls that no one can afford to shop at, all while neglecting the poor among them. And they only offer saving ordinances if you pay for them and profess to follow these men.

      This is not "speaking evil of the the Lord's anointed." This is not "being bound by the weeds that have me entangled in myopia." This is not "hate of the LDS leadership." Rather, these are truths and the fruits these men have born, by which I am commanded to judge them. And they are difficult to see and painful to accept. But they are nevertheless truths. And we ignore them and continue to blindly follow these men at our peril.
      (continued...)

      Delete
    6. By implying that we need to take a step back and just watch God's hand in the big picture (like a movie? Pass the popcorn!) and that he is in control of all things and therefore has woven all things for our success, you are necessarily removing man's agency from the equation. God cannot remove man's agency. He cannot control it, or He ceases to be God! If he calls a prophet, that prophet CAN fail. The leaders of the LDS church CAN fail. The establishment of Zion CAN fail. And if/when they do (and most have thus far), apostasy ensues. Then God waits for a season and tries again by calling new prophets, hoping to produce a new people worthy of His covenants. He is a patient God and will wait as long as He needs to for a people to finally rise up.

      Joseph Smith was a true prophet. Yet since his death the church has fallen into apostasy. What we have today is a shell of what Joseph restored. It is imperative that we wake up, shake off the chains of unbelief that bind us, repent and face the Lord, return to what Joseph taught and offered, and seek for true messengers from the Father.

      You are also correct in that we are all human and "it is up to us to humble ourselves and get over our egos of being offended." You want to know what true humility is? Try being willing to read the Book of Mormon through the eyes of a fallen people, recognize the condemnation and damnantion we have earned, shake off the 200 years of unbelief handed to you from generation to generation, and painfully turn to face the Lord. Try offering up your most prized possession--your church membership-- to the Lord at His command, only to find and find yourself suddenly alone, rejected, shunned, misjudged, and hated in this fallen world with ONLY God at your helm. THAT requires true humility. And it hurts.

      Frankly, I am not interested in taking a step back and "seeing the big picture, and watching God's plan over the act of this entire world unfold." I am not watching a movie. Instead I am seeking true messengers from the Father to teach me. I am seeking to KNOW Jesus Christ and become part of the family of God. That is what He requires of me right now. This is MY focus.

      God speed to you in your quest for truth. May you find peace in your journey and success in whatever you are seeking.

      Delete
    7. Underdog,

      Present away.

      Delete
    8. "you are necessarily removing man's agency from the equation. God cannot remove man's agency. He cannot control it, or He ceases to be God! If he calls a prophet, that prophet CAN fail. The leaders of the LDS church CAN fail. The establishment of Zion CAN fail."

      As I had expected, this is where you stumble. You have talked yourself into the notion that God can be defeated. That man can thwart God's purposes. That agency is at odds with God's design.

      Note that by the same notion, you would have to entertain the possibility that Satan ultimately wins. (I got great news for you: Satan most surely loses.) Ironically, you would also have to dismiss prophesy altogether yet this is the stick you are trying to use to measure prophets. What good is prophesy if man can frustrate that prophesy by his agency?

      Fortunately there is no conflict because God designed things so well. That's why I say take a step back. Look at His designs! He's doing something with this world! He has not just left it all to the chaos of billions of free agents to possibly reach any outcome.

      Until you can grasp this you will continue to stumble.

      Delete
  18. I testify to the truth of CherryAnn's words, Anonymous. I believe she has spoken clearly in humility and friendship. I agree with her understanding that instead of moving us about like pieces on a chess board, God invites us to follow the example of Jesus Christ using our divine agency and faith to make sometimes impossibly-hard choices. Mortality is, by definition, messy, organic and given to fits and starts. Unless we're making mistakes we're not learning.

    If you find yourself jolted into cognitive dissonance some day by the gyrations in policies, procedures, ordinances and doctrines of the modern church, know that you're always welcome in any of the restoration fellowships springing up in many places. You'll find genuine devotion to Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon waiting for you. And if you choose to stay true to your current beliefs may you thrive and claim joy in your life.

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    Replies
    1. Then, by your logic, if you are going to be consistent, it is entirely possible that Satan dethrones God in the end. Also by your logic, prophesies need not come to pass. Rather, they are just suggestions in jeopardy at all times to agency.

      You are so very wrong. God's foreknowledge and design of this world and man's agency are not at odds. You have so much to learn.

      Delete
    2. "Mortality is, by definition, messy, organic and given to fits and starts."

      To YOU it is. To God it is all going according to plan. Your false notion of things replaces "trust in the Lord" with "good luck in the chaos". God has everything under control. You simply cannot see it yet because like many you are trapped in a myopic view. I hope you can someday break free of that and experience the peace of trusting God with His creation.

      Delete
    3. Anonymous (you have a name. Why not use it?),

      In other words, it doesn't matter what we do in this life because God will win and so will we? Absolutely not! Your premise totally abrogates the scriptures and the purpose of life.

      God IS in charge. He has His laws and He WILL win. You are correct in this. But we get to choose whether we will be on His winning team, or be destroyed in the end. OUR CHOICE. Zion WILL come. The question is, will you or I be part of it? Will it be in our generation? It CAN be. The invitation has been extended! Now it is up to US to choose to make it happen. Someone will rise up to bring this to pass. But it doesn't mean you and I get to be a part of it.

      God gave us agency. He gave us commandments. We can choose to obey and win with Him or ignore Him at our peril. He is patiently waiting for us to choose. If we don't, he will wait for another generation and try again.

      Satan has a great hold on this world (he is the god of this world!) and as long as he can keep us from rising up to know God, he DOES win with us individually. But God IS more powerful and he CAN save us if WE LET him! Period. Our choice.

      This is the test. We are the players in this battle. It's not some philosophical argument of movie watching and lackadaisical salvation. YOU are not saved until YOU rise up to know Christ and become part of His family. Period. No need to try to prove me wrong in this. The entire Book of Mormon, every prophet and the Lord Himself have taught this from the foundation of the world. Read the Book of Mormon with open eyes and you will see that life isn't as rosy as you pretend.

      Good luck on your journey! May you and I both be found on His winning team.

      Delete
  19. Anonymous,
    Per your request, I’ll present to you several facts, maybe 5 – 10 in a moment. Let me present this comment to you first since I already had it mostly typed up.
    You said that you are not justifying the top leaders’ errors. “So, yes, they and you and I can err. But, no, they cannot lead others astray.” You’ve cleverly justified that bold statement by twisting a truth on a technicality. The truth is that others cannot technically lead us astray because we don’t have to accept their fallen or erroneous council or teachings. Or as you said it, “It's up to us to show ourselves who we really are by the choices we make on that path.” Yes, that is true.
    But the point is that MANY are led astray by false prophets and teachers, as prophesied. The fact that we have freedom of choice does not invalidate that there will be/ are false prophets who will lead MANY astray and deceive even the very elect. Many prophecies and history itself shows a pattern of: restoration, then apostasy. Then restoration, then apostasy.
    You honestly sound like the fulfillment of this scripture in 2 Nephi 28:7: “And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.”
    You say the LDS leaders “are acting appropriately for the grand design---as they obey…The correct choices they make are what matters to the church. Their errors are their own to sort out and answer for. They create needed obstacles we need to contend with.”
    You are correct. Absolutely they create obstacles (Matt 23:13)! They are apostate! How are YOU “contending” with the obstacles they create? So far I see you say that their leadership doesn’t matter, WHILE DEFENDING THEM! You say, “their correct choices…matters.” So their correct choices matter, but their incorrect choices do not? You’ve provided a text book example of moral relativism / situational ethics!
    So far you’ve been exposed as a collectivist who believes an elite ruling class is necessary and that we should “love” them (because you accuse me/us of “hating” them, which means you must “love” them, forgetting Matt 10:37), and that you embrace moral relativity, picking and choosing what matters and what doesn’t, and to top it off you are confusing freedom of choice somehow with God’s purposes being thwarted.
    You reason that God’s purposes could theoretically be thwarted because man has freedom of choice. And in a rare statistical anomaly, that would be true. But then you incorrectly conclude that because “theoretically” God’s purposes could be thwarted, that God isn’t in control.
    God wants to save you, Anonymous, but His hands are tied if you don’t believe and repent and become as a little child. True for all of us. If every last one of us decides to harden our hearts, that doesn’t mean He isn’t in control so to speak. One thing that Denver said earlier this year that really stood out to me is that he is astonished at how patient Jesus is. As I recall, he said that Jesus is in absolutely no hurry at all. He’s not going to “control” or force us. He entices, He invites, He persuades, He uses loving kindness, but will not push and nag or use any degree of compulsion on the souls of the children of men. This idea Denver shared is a revelation, and was given to Denver by the power of the Holy Ghost. I hope it means something to you here, because it would help clear up your stumbling block regarding your unbelief that having free agency (and therefore the possibility of apostate leaders) somehow means God ultimately won’t be “in control” and successful at saving mankind. Things ARE going according to His purposes.

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    1. But the point is that MANY are led astray by false prophets and teachers, as prophesied. The fact that we have freedom of choice does not invalidate that there will be/are false prophets who will lead MANY astray and deceive even the very elect. Many prophecies and history itself shows a pattern of: restoration, then apostasy. Then restoration, then apostasy.

      Yes. As is it should be. That’s baked into the Plan.


      You honestly sound like the fulfillment of this scripture in 2 Nephi 28:7: “And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.”

      Where did I say (or even imply) that anyone is justified in their sin? I did not say that. You are projecting, falsely.


      They are apostate! How are YOU “contending” with the obstacles they create? So far I see you say that their leadership doesn’t matter, WHILE DEFENDING THEM! You say, “their correct choices…matter.” So their correct choices matter, but their incorrect choices do not? You’ve provided a text book example of moral relativism / situational ethics!

      They are responsible for their own sins, as are you and I. That’s not a defense of sin and that’s not moral relativism. Their sins don’t matter to us unless they are directly and personally against us. We are not their judge. Only their correct choices matter TO US because that is how the important truths have been preserved on this earth. They could have done a lot worse if they were the wholly evil demons you paint them to be. You are evidently far too obsessed with sin watching to recognize ANY good. You have condemned them for the manner in which they have both willingly and unwillingly preserved the truth. Watch out, because you will get the same standard applied to you in the Judgment. This dialog will stand against you at that day.


      So far you’ve been exposed as a collectivist who believes an elite ruling class is necessary and that we should “love” them (because you accuse me/us of “hating” them, which means you must “love” them, forgetting Matt 10:37), and that you embrace moral relativity, picking and choosing what matters and what doesn’t…

      You have failed to provide any sincere positives about them and the things they have done. I doubt you can. That is evidence of your hatred toward them. They are also children of God, whom God desires to save. Their actions have both (1) created obstacles and (2) preserved truth. You let (1) dominate your thoughts to the exclusion of (2). Nothing they have done (nor indeed can do) has destroyed the truth. The truth is still there to find for anyone diligent enough to seek it. It’s not as easy as you’d like it to be. Many of the things they have done have made it difficult for some. But, guess what? This life is a test. It’s not supposed to be easy. You are frustrated that they would not simply “come clean”, admit their errors, and see things your way and on your timetable. That’s not how it works, my friend. Those obstacles that are dogging you would be only replaced by an entirely different set of obstacles. Life is a test! Joseph Smith’s name was to be had for both good and evil among all people. That’s how it has to be. That’s baked in to the Plan. It will be resolved in the own due time of the Lord---not on your timetable.

      Delete

    2. ….to top it off you are confusing freedom of choice somehow with God’s purposes being thwarted. You reason that God’s purposes could theoretically be thwarted because man has freedom of choice. And in a rare statistical anomaly, that would be true. But then you incorrectly conclude that because “theoretically” God’s purposes could be thwarted, that God isn’t in control.

      …it would help clear up your stumbling block regarding your unbelief that having free agency (and therefore the possibility of apostate leaders) somehow means God ultimately won’t be “in control” and successful at saving mankind. Things ARE going according to His purposes.

      You are (willingly or unwillingly) misstating and misunderstanding my point. It is not I who am confused here. There is no conflict between God’s design and man’s agency. But YOUR point of view IMPLIES that there a conflict. YOUR view raises the possibility that God can fail. Yet He CANNOT fail. There is NO possibility, not even a “rare statistical” one. He is God!

      Delete
  20. Continued…(to Anonymous):
    The Prophet Mormon addresses your hypothetical here in Moroni 7:36-37: “Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved? Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.” Mormon says NO the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, but then says IF it happened, it would be because of unbelief. Ironically, you seem to be confused because YOU are not seeing the big picture, which is that God is a successful God, and His entire work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man (Moses 1:39).

    You have the precise sentiment as that prophecy in 2 Nephi 28:7 as you essentially say, “There is no harm in leaders having error / apostasy.” You are saying essentially that “God DOES look upon sin with a degree of allowance.”
    You've now painted yourself into a corner (see picture above in Adrian’s post!) by claiming apostasy of leaders doesn’t matter. So I ask you to re-clarify your thoughts, and for goodness sake, make a concession when one is warranted.
    2 questions for you: 1) Apostasy of church leaders does not matter or it does? 2) If it does matter, at what point (when does their apostasy cross the line for you)?
    You seem to concede that our leaders could be sacrificing children in Satanic rituals, and you’re okay with that, as you say, “Their errors are their own to sort out and answer for.”
    So what’s the line for you, when does their apostasy matter?
    And should the flock of the under shepherds just quietly sit there in their Stockholm state and take it? Or speak up and point out the apostasy, as Adrian does in this blog from time to time as he feels warranted?
    Finally, food for thought…Would you have rather been influenced by Aaron and the golden calf or Moses who sought to bring his people into the presence of God? Would you prefer to have had the guidance of King Noah and his priests, or Abinadi, and then later a repentant Alma and the righteous leadership of King Mosiah? What about Alma's son, Alma, was he effective in building up or "destroying the church of God" (the angel's words) before or after his conversion? Which Alma would you have preferred to be in a position of leadership? Would you prefer to have the “Rameumption” Zoramite leaders influencing you, or Alma?
    Or does it not matter to you at all to have apostate leaders acting like sweet little sheep, when inwardly they are actually ravening wolves? It’s okay to have our LDS leaders/preachers teaching their philosophies, mingled with Scripture, right? If not, at what point is their apostasy unacceptable?
    So far you’ve been saying it doesn't matter if they are apostate because God has "a big picture".
    So when would it matter? That's the question before you. Or do you reject the notion that apostasy in the LDS leadership even matters?

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  21. Anonymous,

    You made a statement that claimed that I must not have been in leadership or I wouldn't say what I say. I have been in many high callings; in all the president positions of all auxiliaries as well counselors of them all. But off that...

    Consider Abinadi ~ Mosiah 11

    Why was he the only one not lead astray? What did he do differently than all the people ruled over by a wicked leader?

    He did the one thing that Brigham Young taught his people... when he said they would never be lead astray if they followed this edict.

    The edict:

    What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually." (JD 9:150)

    They are not to be followed without concern for ourselves being lead astray. Abinadi did this and was told to go and testify against the wickedness of the leaders. That is what true prophets do.

    Lehi did this as well and he said there were MANY prophets called to testify against the wickedness of the church in his day.

    Alma traveled through out the land and found the church in apostasy many times. The whole of the Book of Mormon is about the church going into apostasy.

    Why do you think this book was given to us today?





    ReplyDelete

  22. The Prophet Mormon addresses your hypothetical here in Moroni 7:36-37: “Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved? Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.” Mormon says NO the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, but then says IF it happened, it would be because of unbelief. Ironically, you seem to be confused because YOU are not seeing the big picture, which is that God is a successful God, and His entire work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man (Moses 1:39).

    No, those verses in Moroni do not apply to my point. God already knew what choices His children would make before they made them. Some blessings are contingent upon faith and some are unconditional. Those verses make it clear that some blessings are contingent on faith. That miracles can cease because of lack of faith, which is a sorry state of affairs. However, it does not open the possibility that God can fail or be surprised. Perhaps you are imagining a very limited god who’s “playing it by ear” and keeps experimenting with different things to see what men will do. That’s a false and finite god.


    You have the precise sentiment as that prophecy in 2 Nephi 28:7 as you essentially say, “There is no harm in leaders having error / apostasy.” You are saying essentially that “God DOES look upon sin with a degree of allowance.”
    You've now painted yourself into a corner (see picture above in Adrian’s post!) by claiming apostasy of leaders doesn’t matter.

    There is no harm TO US unless they personally and directly hurt us. They have to answer to God for their sins. You are inclined to throw the baby out with the bath water. That’s the bigger mistake.


    So I ask you to re-clarify your thoughts, and for goodness sake, make a concession when one is warranted.

    I’ll be happy to make a concession as soon as I see a valid point.


    2 questions for you: 1) Apostasy of church leaders does not matter or it does?

    It does not matter unless the truth has been taken from the earth. Fortunately, it has not and we are promised that it will not. God keeps His promises. So, no, it does not matter in a material way. It’s a challenge, but a necessary one we need to face on our journey.


    2) If it does matter, at what point (when does their apostasy cross the line for you)?
    You seem to concede that our leaders could be sacrificing children in Satanic rituals, and you’re okay with that, as you say, “Their errors are their own to sort out and answer for.”
    So what’s the line for you, when does their apostasy matter?
    And should the flock of the under shepherds just quietly sit there in their Stockholm state and take it? Or speak up and point out the apostasy, as Adrian does in this blog from time to time as he feels warranted?

    If somebody does a stupid or evil thing, then don’t follow it. Pretty simple. It only matters if YOU start doing it too. I’m not their god. They don’t answer to me for their sins. I will do what I can to protect myself and my family from their errors. I encourage everyone to do so. But they are not able to remove the fullness of the gospel from the earth. So, whatever they do is rather irrelevant. All that matters is what we do with the time that we are given.

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  23. Finally, food for thought…Would you have rather been influenced by Aaron and the golden calf or Moses who sought to bring his people into the presence of God? Would you prefer to have had the guidance of King Noah and his priests, or Abinadi, and then later a repentant Alma and the righteous leadership of King Mosiah? What about Alma's son, Alma, was he effective in building up or "destroying the church of God" (the angel's words) before or after his conversion? Which Alma would you have preferred to be in a position of leadership? Would you prefer to have the “Rameumption” Zoramite leaders influencing you, or Alma?
    Or does it not matter to you at all to have apostate leaders acting like sweet little sheep, when inwardly they are actually ravening wolves? It’s okay to have our LDS leaders/preachers teaching their philosophies, mingled with Scripture, right? If not, at what point is their apostasy unacceptable?
    So far you’ve been saying it doesn't matter if they are apostate because God has "a big picture".
    So when would it matter? That's the question before you. Or do you reject the notion that apostasy in the LDS leadership even matters?

    You hate them. I get that. I don’t have a lot of hate in my heart. Sorry to disappoint. I don’t follow any man. ANY. I listen to what a lot of different people have to say both within and outside the LDS church and I confirm or disaffirm it with God. God assures me that He has everything under control no matter what the people choose to do. It matters to a certain extent, because it can be difficult to sort it all out, but it’s all part of the path God wants us to experience. I’m comfortable with the opposition in ALL things, because I see the wisdom in that.

    Believe it or not, but the LDS leadership has bigger concerns to deal with than these doctrinal problems that dog you. The Gentile world is collapsing and taking religious freedom with it right before our eyes. The LDS are on the right side of that fight, working to preserve the right to believe and practice as one wishes. That fight is way more important. They need prayers and support more than ever at this time. Due to mistakes made by current and prior leaders, they face some pretty scary foes right now. You may not be with the LDS in doctrinal matters, but if you are fighting the LDS right now, you are on the wrong side for sure.

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  24. I wonder about supporting an organization 'such as was found in the day of wicked King Noah' because the Lamanites are upon us. In other words you are saying support the LDS because of our political chaos and deterioration and vulnerable state as a country in regards to religious freedoms etc.

    From what I have come to know about the political power of the LDS, and the way they are inviting our enemies into our country (the very ones who want to destroy our religious freedoms) and asking the saints to donate to aide the refugees to come, makes them our enemy as well. Reading in the Book of Mormon we are taught:

    2 Nephi 1:8
    8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.

    So I am sorry that you believe we should be lead astray not only in the doctrines but also in our political safety.

    These things are urgent indeed and we need to pray more energetically as to what to follow after and endorse.

    One more thing; in 3rd Nephi 16: it states: 10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

    Don't you thnk it important to have those conditions brought to our attention so we know what is happening which results in the fullness being taken from us?

    ReplyDelete
  25. I don’t hate the Brethren. Strawman. I can give you lots of reasons that I have appreciated them through the years. Now that I’m awake, I love them as I would a wayward child, and I have one. My child does an incredible amount of good things. So do the Brethren. But teaching the true doctrine of Christ is not one of them, sorry to say. I love them regardless of their imperfections and want them to return to Christ. To be honest, I don’t spend much time thinking about them. I’ve got my own repentance to concern myself with (Alma 42:30).

    You said in your last comment, “If you are fighting the LDS right now, you are on the wrong side for sure.” See #9 below for an explanation for why you are confused. Clearly, you believe “the LDS” = “the Lord”. They are different. Elder Poelman made the distinction. That distinction was gutted from his original talk. I’m not fighting the LDS, heck I’m an active LDS right now. This isn’t about fighting anybody, save fighting and conquering the enemy of all righteousness (Moroni 9:6), it’s about worshipping the true and living God and repenting of idolatry and letting go of false traditions.

    The wrong side is apostasy from the Lord and being blinded by the craftiness of men. The correct side is truth and Jesus Christ. The LDS institutional Church is in full-blown apostasy and it’s going to accelerate rapidly from here. Below are 14 facts for you to consider. Please respond to each one if you care – or simply acknowledge them all – that’s what I would be compelled to do as I don’t see the honesty in denying facts. Facts are not matters of interpreting. In many above cases, you’ve interpreted scriptures in a different way. You’re free to do that. I don’t have the time or desire to rehash in a circular debate. However, I don’t see how that you have the leisure or wiggle room to do that, being that these are facts and not opinions:

    1. False “doctrine” was canonized in OD1, which turbocharged idolatry and priestcraft in the Church to the unprecedented levels we witness today. It is 100% apostate and anti Christ to declare that our leaders cannot lead us astray. It flies in the face of all scriptural history and warnings. They are fallible men. So are the Catholics. So is Denver Snuffer. So was Joseph Smith. This anti Christ "doctrine" was added recently in 1981. As Mormons, we teach the original Christian Church apostatized (i.e., the Catholics are apostate) and if they could and did, despite the Catholics using the same claims to authority as the LDS Church, then LDS leaders are obviously equally capable of apostasy. To continue to assert this false doctrine is to argue against our own teachings. Nevertheless, it is a fact this false teaching is now officially part of our cannon as of 1981. I hesitate to include this one because you have actually argued they can’t lead us astray.

    2. The Doctrine portion of the Doctrine and Covenants was and is The Lectures on Faith. It was added at the approval of Joseph Smith in 1835 and sustained unanimously by the voice of the Church in 1835. It was removed in 1921 w/o a church vote. The impact of this removal on church member's understanding of the basic doctrine of our religion has been devastating. Satan rejoices in our confusion.

    3. Have you read Joseph Smith's last vision? We hear of his first vision, but not his last. It is about the Church becoming apostate. Why the silence? Most Mormons have never heard of it. In the vision, Joseph goes back to his farm in Kirtland, and what he encounters horrifies him. He is not only rejected, but the caretakers of the property seek his life!!! The FACT that we NEVER hear of this in church General Conference or regular meetings is evidence of coverup and apostasy.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Continued (to Anonymous):

    4. There is no more common consent in the Church. As one proof, the president of the Church is the “Corporate Sole”. He and he alone owns and has 100% legal stewardship over ALL Church monies and assets. See http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/10/how-corporatism-has-undermined-and.html for explanation.

    5. The LDS Church authorities are paid a salary. How much? It's not disclosed. It’s secret. The Church is presented as a “lay clergy” with zero effort made to clarify that the leadership makes money. This is a fact.

    6. Claims are made concerning the top leaders being “prophets, seers and revelators” while in fact they do not offer any prophecies, nor seeing, nor “thus saith the Lord” revelations.

    7. There is no transparency of the Church financial status. This has not always been the case. The church FOR DECADES (well over a hundred years) always shared their financials. Not anymore. It's completely confidential and we the members are in the dark. This is a fact and evidence of more covering up, what people who do when they require the cloak of darkness.

    8. The Church has invested 4-6 BILLION dollars in just one commercial endeavor, a mall in SLC. Billions of dollars could be used to help the poor and needy, but it does towards a commercial business and one in which many business people in and outside the church say is terribly unwise. If you follow who got the money, you can see where motivations came from.

    9. What about Elder Poelman's 1984 General Conference talk? The original can be found on YouTube. And the scrubbed version, where they refilmed it with "approved" content, has been spliced and is available to see right now at www.lds.org. That's in-your-face censorship! There's no attempt to even cover it up. That fraud is in broad daylight. The major point scrubbed was to disintinguish gospel truths from the instititutional church. The Church has a clear effort to blur the distinction and falsely create in members’ minds that the institutional LDS Church = Christ. That is a lie. It is a fact Elder Poelman’s 1984 talk was rewritten and refilmed and the edited one put up on lds.org.

    10. From Church Handbook of Instructions 1 (CHI 1), “Section 6.7.3 Apostasy. As used here, apostasy refers to members who: 1) Repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders. 2) Persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after they have been corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.” You can find Handbook 1 on the Internet to confirm this. This is a FACT that “apostasy” has remarkably been defined as being opposed to potentially apostate leaders! You would expect a wolf in sheep’s clothing to outlaw any criticism that they are wolves! This is a fact.

    11. The recent policy change concerning the children of homosexuals in direct conflict with clear scripture commandment to baptize those who are accountable who believe in Christ and repent of their sins.

    12. Altering the doctrine of Christ laid out in 3 Nephi 11:31-40, where Christ says that anything added to or taken away is “of evil,” and those responsible for such alterations are not built upon His rock. To argue against this fact places in you in a position of arguing against Jesus Christ direct words.

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  27. Continued (to Anonymous):

    13. The Church is increasingly hostile towards the teaching of The Second Comforter. Despite the N.T. and Joseph Smith teaching this idea and exhorting us to “know” Jesus Christ for that is after all “eternal life” (John 17:3), Elder Oaks recently said in Boise, “The suggestion that this must happen in mortality is a familiar tactic of the adversary.” I expect more belittling of and hostility toward this subject as time goes on. The “fact” I would point to that shows an institutional effort to remove this subject from our instruction is (as of the 2013 edition) “footnote a” in John 14:16 has been changed to refer to the “Holy Ghost”, whereas it originally referred to “Jesus Christ, the Second Comforter”).

    14. “The assertion by the church in their press release that "Decisions are made by local leaders and not directed or coordinated by Church headquarters" is false. In the case of public, controversial members, it is a lie.” (See http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2014/06/church-discipline-top-down.html ) GA’s (including Elder Nelson and Elder Christofferson and Elder L. Whitney Clayton of the Seventy) injected themselves in a local jurisdiction where the stake president didn’t feel any disciplinary action was necessary. See http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-facts.html for details. Joseph Smith taught that the “twelve apostles have no right to go into Zion or any of its stakes where there is a regular high council established, to regulate any matter pertaining thereto” (High Council minutes, 2 May 1835). Yet the 3 GA’s mentioned above commanded a stake president to excommunicate a righteous man worthy of a temple recommend, where the Stake President didn’t feel any disciplinary action was warranted. This is top-down tyranny by general authorities, frequently under the guise of the secretive arm of the Strengthening the Church Members Committee, while the Church simultaneously declares that general authorities never have such involvement with local discipline.

    15. None of our current or recent apostles have testified to have experienced what Joseph Smith experienced. Denver, however, HAS experienced what Joseph did. The last fact I share is that we have nothing to point to as evidence of or even to evaluate as prophecy or seership from any current general authorities (see Matthew 7:15-20).

    I can list more. But this should suffice. You cannot interpret these facts away, but I actually have Mormons tell me that these are “so-called” facts and that they are somehow subjective. Paul tells us to “prove all things.” I say the truth should stand up to scrutiny.

    You’ve ignored my question about when does apostasy cross the line, or how much is too much apostasy? It’s a good question. In other words, when are enough facts smacking you in the face that you cease making excuses and you wake up and confess that, “Gosh, my beloved leaders are actually truly apostate”? Or do you want to continue unwittingly personally fulfilling 2 Nephi 28 where it prophecies that many in the last days will say something like, “nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, say you’re a lay church when you’re not, or tell people their prophets won’t lead them astray, and to trust in the arm of flesh, spend $5 billion of sacred tithing on a mall at the expense of the poor, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for Brother Snuffer; deny baptism to children of homosexual parents who desire to be baptized and who believe and have repented, there is no harm in this…”
    Will you deny these facts (Alma 30:41)?

    I do compliment you for asking for these facts earlier! Most Mormons do not want to hear them. But you wanted to hear them. So hat tip to you for asking. But now, what will you do with this info? Will you deny these facts? Or might you consider that your traditions are being challenged, and that Christ is inviting you to let go of false traditions and come unto Him?

    ReplyDelete
  28. Anonymous,

    You stated that if a leader taught wrong it was only on him. Not so according to this:

    "President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel [see, for example, verses 9-10: 'If the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing...the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him.']...said the Lord had declared by the Prophet [Ezekiel], that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church -- that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls -- applied it to the present state [1842] of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall -- that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves..." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pp. 237-38)

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  29. Anonymous,

    Mosiah 17 begs to differ with your opinion that it does not matter if church leaders are apostate and leading us astray. You said, “It does not matter in a material way.”

    Mormon, who gave us the highlights the Lord wanted us to have, said in Mosiah 17:

    16 And it will come to pass that ye shall be afflicted with all manner of diseases because of your iniquities.
    17 Yea, and ye shall be smitten on every hand, and shall be driven and scattered to and fro, even as a wild flock is driven by wild and ferocious beasts.
    18 And in that day ye shall be hunted, and ye shall be taken by the hand of your enemies, and then ye shall suffer, as I suffer, the pains of death by fire.
    19 Thus God executeth vengeance upon those that destroy his people.

    The horror they experienced mattered to them, I would safely say.

    You know Jerusalem was destroy around 600 BC. Did it matter to the people who lived there that they were being led by apostate leaders? Or would you have preferred to have gone to the promised land on a boat with Lehi and Nephi? The Jews, who were scourged over centuries for murdering their God, becoming a hiss and a byword, did it matter to them?


    I think history begs to differ with you. I believe your answer that apostate leadership “doesn’t matter” yet again exposes your abilities to discern. With all due respect, I am very concerned about the Church members. I am concerned there are many like you who are content to look the other way. Scriptures testify the Lord doesn’t concur with you when false prophets use His name in vain, and consequences will follow upon those who profess to know His name but have not known Him. I tremble when I read these verses:

    DC 112:

    24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

    25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

    26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

    And I have to humbly testify that it does matter. Being able to clearly discern which leaders are true and which are apostate is critical in our journey to the Lord.

    And as Sandra reminded us of the teaching in Ezekiel, it MATTERS esp to the prophet, as he will be punished for leading people astray. It is indeed a heavy burden to have that holy calling! Where much is given, much is required.

    Ezek 14:

    9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have not deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

    10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;

    11 That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord God.

    As I read these verses, it appears indeed that destruction awaits the LDS leadership, that the Gentiles of the House of Israel “may go no more astray from” the Lord, “neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions…”

    The proverbial stuff is gonna hit the fan very soon. As Patty said to you with friendship, when the cognitive dissonance gets too unbearable for you, there are seekers of Christ who would welcome your fellowship, no matter the hour of the day that you come to work (see Matt 20:12).

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  30. Underdog,

    None of those points are news to me. Most of your points assume ignorance. It’s not ignorance, it’s simply a different take on what these things mean.

    1. I’ve already addressed this point. But I shall share with you addition knowledge if you are able to receive it. Read excerpts from the addresses regarding OD1 again very carefully. Pres. Woodruff lays a question before the saints: “This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints...I want you to answer it for yourselves.” Pay special attention to the phrase “I want you to answer it for yourselves.” It’s a peculiar way to deliver an address. Now, read D&C 50 and focus on verses 4 and 7: “Behold, I, the Lord have looked upon you, and have seen abominations in the church that profess my name.” and “Behold, verily I say unto you, there are hypocrites among you, who deceived some, which has given the adversary power; but behold such shall be reclaimed.” Finally, look at verse 16: “Behold ye shall answer this question yourselves; nevertheless, I will be merciful unto you; he that is weak among you hereafter shall be made strong.” Indeed, they ultimately answered the question for themselves regarding the false spirits among them that misled people into abominations. There is much more light on this prophesy fulfillment if you will seek it out. When did they do it? They did it near Joseph Smith’s 85th birthday. Why is that an important date?

    2. Yet you and I know about it. Hence, we have access to the knowledge we need. Your complaint here and elsewhere has a common theme of lamenting about HOW you come to learn the truth. You dismiss the blessing of the knowledge itself being preserved. It’s all there for the diligent searcher. Praise God.

    3. Most Mormons have not learned a lot of things that they could. We each have our own path and challenges.

    4. Do you know their purposes? Why do they structure it the way they do? Is there any scenario in which this structure could be the right thing to do? Could it be working a greater purpose even through their folly?

    5. See 7.

    6. It would be far worse to declare a false prophesy than to say nothing at all. If they are so thoroughly evil as you insinuate, then they would declare "Thus saith the Lord" prophesy although they did not receive any. You infer deception. However, it is observationally equivalent that they merely have not received instruction from the Lord to declare any more prophesy at this time because of the hard hearts of the people, for example.

    7. Do you know their purposes? Why do they disclose what they disclose? Is there any scenario in which this disclosure policy could be the right thing to do? Could it be working a greater purpose even through their folly?

    ReplyDelete
  31. 8. Do you know their purposes? Why did they spend the money here? Is there any scenario in which this expenditure could have been the right thing to do? Could it be working a greater purpose even through their folly?

    9. Confusion exists on many issues. Minor event spiced up with YOUR projection of malicious motives onto them.

    10. There are proper ways to disagree and improper ways to disagree. There are errors on both sides. One is free to express any opinion they choose within the laws of the nation in which they reside. But one is not free to do so as a member of the LDS church. Membership has certain responsibilities.

    11. Do you know their purposes? Why did they enact this policy here? Is there any scenario in which this policy could have been the right thing to do? Could it be working a greater purpose?

    12. Christ is referring to the doctrinal FOUNDATION (3 Nephi 11:39-40) which is made clear by the repeated use of “buildeth upon.” Everything that is of Him must build upon this foundational doctrine or it will fall.

    13. Doctrinal minutia spiced up with YOUR projection of malicious motives onto them. Their footnotes are not doctrine.

    14. See 10.

    15. See 6. I do not believe Denver for many reasons which I will not go into right now. Suffice it to say that he doesn't understand the truth about Joseph Smith’s role yet nor point 1. above.

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  32. Ezekiel 14:9 undermines your own argument. It's plain as day.

    9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have not deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

    Pres. Woodruff said essentially the same thing:

    "The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray...If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place..."

    Yet you curse him for saying it but praise Ezekiel for saying it.

    Ridiculous. At least be internally consistent in your rebellion.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Anonymous,

    Be patient, as you say. God is working. The destruction IS promised. It's only been a few years since there has been willful deception going on.

    Get ready. I quoted to you DC 112 saying the destruction will begin at His house, among the people who profess His name but know Him not.

    As YOU say, your time frame is not God's time frame. Give Him time, as you say. You can't selectively quote "rules". If you use a certain reasoning to shoot down one argument, you can't say it doesn't apply when somebody else uses it. Be consistent.

    The destruction in v. 9 is pending. It's a matter of time. Absolutely the reputation of the current GA's (esp Nelson, Christofferson, and Clayton), and I believe the First Presidency cannot be ignorant of Denver Snuffer, so all their repurations will be destroyed for the purpose of preserving a remnant.

    It is coming. Pray that you and the world has time to repent.

    ReplyDelete
  34. All this fairy tale re: the restoration is such bunk. Joseph was not to start a church ... in the Book of Commandments he was only to translate the record - he had amazing spiritual gifts, but so many people throughout the ages have also seen God the Father, Jesus Christ, been taken to heaven and seen amazing things. Does Denver ever talk about what he sees? No ... why is that? Swedenborg, Rudolph Steiner,
    http://www.nonegw.org/egw32.shtml ... all have had incredible experiences that surpass anything Denver has talked about. To think that Denver is the Davidic Servant is laughable ... Seriously people? Denver was instrumental in getting us out of the box of the LDS church but he has kept you all in the box of religion. There are too many people upon this earth now who are experiencing heaven ... Father, Jesus, Grandfather, and even Grandmother and they all say the same thing. It is not about religion but relationship ... this whole thing about Joseph sealing everyone to himself and then to the patriarchs is so completely false. We are to be sealed directly to Jesus Christ himself ... He is the New and Everlasting Covenant, not temple marriage, not the Book of Mormon. Jesus needs to be the center of everything ... not Joseph Smith, not the restoration, but Jesus.

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  35. I think you're right about the promised destruction. The LDS church did not set up a watchtower with a watchman as they should have. But it's coming to the Gentiles as a whole as well. Everyone needs to get right with God.

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  36. Anonymous,

    You quoted Woodruff:"The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray...If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place..."

    Doesn't this totally undo what Brigham Young stated on the subject? Which do we believe? and if they are going to make mistakes or err, should they make the statement that they can't lead anyone astray without putting out qualifiers? Brigham Young put out qualifiers. Woodruff did not. And todays' leaders put out even less than Woodruff as they no longer claim they will be removed. They just claim human weakness and say things like Elder Oaks when he stated that it was wrong to criticize/point out errs of leadership even if that criticism is true. Wouldn't that mean praying to know if our leaders are leading us correctly had no value? So the Lord tells us what we heard is wrong. Are we to keep our mouths shut or say something? If we are to keep our mouths shut, it would mean it would take our God given freedom away. Our precious first amendment. Were the church leaders right when they said that the founders of our constitution were inspired of God? Are they inspired of God who take these rights away?
    Can a house divided against itself stand?

    If the Lord is no respecter of persons, yet has a church leadership claim they have the right to err and it is okay, but if someone without such leadership privileges points out the error, or does the same thing, they can be Xed by this 'respected' higher special group? Is the Lord truly no respecter of persons? and if He is, could a church like this ever really be representing Him?

    There are so many contradictions in the church as it is run today.

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  37. Sandra,

    There are many contradictions indeed. It's increasingly very confusing. But the truth is still available among all the fog. It requires great diligence to find it, but it is there thankfully.

    Sometimes we will have to make hard choices. Sometimes that will mean a break with the church leadership. But we must go about it in the proper way. Our goal should be to reach understanding, not to point fingers. There is absolutely nothing wrong with expressing one's struggle to understand a teaching. One can express that struggle again and again forever it needs be. But it must be done with the goal of understanding. That goal is so important. Otherwise, one can get carried away into a spirit of contention---and we know where that comes from.

    God has everything under control. The Lord will make corrections in His own due time.

    There are many who feel as frustrated as do you and I. Talk about it with each other. Pride keeps us from expressing our struggle to understand a teaching. Just admit it to one another. Never give up on trying to understand and never give in to accepting something one does not understand.

    This does NOT mean that the leaders get everything or even most things right. It simply means that the way to reach them is through love and understanding, not through upheaval, contention, and protest. And it does not mean blind acceptance. That will always fail.

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  38. Anonymous,

    Leaving items 1 and 15 alone, you have not rebutted items 2-14.

    Unsurprisingly, rather than make obvious concessions and acknowledge apostasy when it's self evident, you do what others attempt as well. You try to "interpret away" these facts of apostasy by claiming there is "simply a different take on what these things mean."

    I'm sorry but I think this proves you are disingenuous. How is there a different take on a lay church not being a lay church? It is or it isn't.

    How is there a different take on the church removing the Lectures on Faith from our scriptures without a vote? It's a fact.

    How can there be a different take on the official church press release that "Decisions are made by local leaders and not directed or coordinated by Church headquarters"? This is true or a lie. And evidence proves it is a lie.

    How can there be a different take on Handbook 1 Section 6.7.3 on the definition of Apostasy?

    How can there be a different take on the content that was removed from the 1984 (the irony!) Elder Poelman talk? We have the BEFORE & AFTER speeches. The fact is indisputable.

    Etc.

    There aren't different "takes". There are facts. Obviously anybody can do "lawyer speak" and say "is" doesn't mean "is" like Bill Clinton famously did.

    I don't have time for that silliness.

    I have given you the benefit of the doubt. I believe you mean well. But not one concession from you makes it challenging to continue the dialogue.

    The LDS leaders you honor as prophets and men of God should immediately apologize and revoke Section 6.7.3. It is the work of tyrants who seek to reign by unrighteous dominion. It directly contradicts Section 121 of the D&C. All Section 6.7.3 does is cite authority as basis for excommunication. That is the work of the devil.

    You won't even concede this obvious point and it's just one example of many. You said, "But one is not free to [express opinions] as a member of the LDS church."

    This gives great insight into how you are wired up and how you fail to grasp the gospel of Jesus Christ. We are not free to express our opinions? Wow!

    You must hate Edward Snowden and Julian Assange and all whistleblowers in and outside the Church and Martin Luther and Abinadi and anybody who tries to bring dark works to the light of day.

    I'm stunned at your lack of respect for the majesty of the principle of Freedom. We have been taught the truth that free agency is one of the greatest gifts from God. And you spit on it.

    I see that you are not principled or grounded in God. Everything is relative to you. You invoke relativism in about every one of the items of apostasy I quoted. God is unchangeable.

    God can't help you unless you concede error and let go of false tradition.

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  39. Anonymous,

    I believe that all things work for the good of those who love God. This means that the Lord will work with what happens in our free will to our good IF we love the Lord. But for those who do not love the Lord, but rather love the world, idols, things, power, status, etc... the Lord will not make all things work for their good, but rather will make all things work to their destruction.

    I have a long history of experience in the church. I am not angry, frustrated, or hateful towards anyone in the church, not in the high leadership nor in the lowest congregationalist. What I do have is an abhorrence for the spreading of false doctrine which will rob many of the glorious experiences available to all people everywhere.

    When I see men leading a church they attribute to Christ, contrary to what the Lord, himself, has simply put forth in the scriptures and grouping tighter and tighter to defend those wrong ways, I have to take a stand against it.

    People are being taught worldly concepts. Competition and worldly education is central. The sign on the entrance to BYU demonstrates how far from the 'principles of truth' are being misconstrued through worldly input. Intelligence is the glory of God. Truth and light of the Godly sort is not found in a college education which mostly teaches false man made histories, man made sciences which change every year as new things displace old and social sciences, etc etc. This is not the 'intelligence or glory' of God.

    Charity is seldom understood correctly. It is not free stuff given (1 Cor. 13:1-3) nor is it service. It is a state of being. Only one person as ever taught this concept correctly in my life time and it wasn't an apostle/prophet who taught it right. It was a sister in the RS presidency Sister Allred. But her talk went over their heads and only Elder Uchtdorf's talk of 'Forgetmenots' was heard and praised. In his talk ... we are not perfect, we can't be perfect, no one is perfect... was thrown to the top of the popular list of doctrines. But reading in the scriptures we know that not only are we commanded to be perfect but in Moroni 10:32-33 we are taught how. I wrote Elder Uchtdorf about this a few times and finally he started to change his talks. I don't take credit for those changes, only the Lord could open someone's blind eyes. But he was still made to put in the worship of the leadership, focusing the people back upon the church rather than Christ. It disturbs anyone who has been taught personally these principles by the Lord.

    These are concepts that effect eternal destinies. They are not trivial. Yes, those who teach incorrectly in high place will be judged harshly because they have not sought their errand from the Lord. But those who listen and follow, are so indoctrinated with fear and guilt, and 'conditioning' they don't dare look beyond their leaders for the truth.

    Wasn't it Bruce R. who said that when the prophet speaks the 'thinking' had been done? These kinds of philosophies of men turn people away from trying to find the truth for themselves.

    Anyway... I could go on all night like this so I will stop here.

    I am not against the lds church leaders, I am against those things that cause people to stumble where ever they are found.

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  40. Anonymous,

    You have been and continue to talk in circles. It is exhausting and pointless, not to mention nonsensical doctrine. And it is clear you will continue to push your point until you have the last word.

    So I will only say this: Clearly you believe the LDS leadership is to be understood and honored, even in their "fallen" state. You say they muddy the waters, but we are still to look to them for leadership and learn the truth of what they teach, however long that takes and however difficult it is to find. You believe they are still in God's favor and are right, no matter what.

    What if what they teach isn't true? Then what? How can they lead us to Christ if they don't know how to get there themselves? And why should I spend any more time trying to understand their false teachings?

    You are correct. The truth has not been taken from the earth, and it is a challenge to find it. The waters sure are muddy! The truth CAN be found, though! It just no longer lies with the leadership or teachings of the LDS church! God no longer claims them! They have rejected the doctrine of Christ and changed His ordinances. Therefore, they are not lead by Him and are instead left to their own devices to survive as a church.

    We must turn away from our apostasy and seek true messengers from the Father to point the way back to Him. He HAS called some!

    This life is our probationary state--our time to prepare to meet God. If the LDS leadership can't take us there, then our allegiance to them ends. Only Christ can save us. It is imperative that we spend our time getting to know Him and His teachings. The hour is late and we haven't much time.

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  41. Underdog,

    Because YOU cannot see how it can be for the greater good, you conclude there is no way. That is very limited thinking. It's called the fallacy of appeal to ignorance. You assert your wisdom over theirs and call it evidence of corruption. It's nothing but your interpretation. Give me some objective facts.

    Moreover, I have already conceded several times that everyone can make mistakes, even in roles of leadership, no matter what the organization is. I've already stipulated that. So, that's not the issue. You won't take yes for an answer on that point.

    However, your interpretation of (1) the intent behind those mistakes and (2) the overall impact of those mistakes are highly debatable. You only offer the negative view. You project onto these men only the worst of intentions and deadliest of impacts.

    The leaders should only make official apologies, announcements of changes, etc. IF GOD DIRECTS THEM TO DO SO. Otherwise, they are out of order. Just because you demand it of them does not make it right. Who are you to tell them how to be?

    Membership in the church is not the same as citizenship in a nation. Those come with different privileges and responsibilities. That is a basic fact. Why do you want to deny that most obvious of facts? The church is not a democracy or a republic. It's a private ecclesiastical organization. You misquote me in a material way: "But one is not free to [express *ANY* opinion] as a member of the LDS church." You left out the critical qualifier "ANY". Why would you do that? Mistake or dishonesty? You should apologize for mis-characterizing me. Some opinions are unbecoming of a member. For example, the opinion that "Satan is good" should not be permitted to stand without rebuke. You have confused the secular and ecclesiastical domains. The church requires responsible speech. As it should. If you want to raise contention (such as with dishonest characterizations), do it in another organization. Contention is of the devil and does not belong in the church.

    One more thing. Your duplicity of retaining membership in the church while bad-mouthing it is highly unethical. You should ask for your name to be removed from the church records if you're going to preach against the church.



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  42. CherryAnne your post is most refreshing. Clear, true, and wonderfully to the point.

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  43. Anonymous,

    I am happy to apologize since you ask. It was an accidental omission. But this is a diversion, isn't it? I know the technique you employ.

    It's ridiculous to suggest I tried to infer you said all opinions are disallowed. That's more lawyer speak. Are you a lawyer may I ask?

    Because of context we are clearly talking about opinions relating to religious belief.

    You are assailing the messenger like lawyers do, rather than addressing the content of my message, which still stands unrebutted. Diversion is an old, over-used technique you're using. Please focus on my message. I've just mirrored back to you what you are, haven't I?

    Your statements demonstrate a tendency toward unrighteous dominion which is anathema to DC 121. Of course members should have the freedom to express doctrinal questions or concerns without fear of being excommunicated. But you want to dig in and counter the obvious truth instead of making an easy concession.

    The context here is the fact that faithful Mormons like Denver Snuffer are being excommunicated for "opinions" that are in harmony with Mormon scriptures, but NOT in harmony with the whims of certain priesthood leaders, in his case Elders Nelson, Christofferson, and Clayton.

    Time and time again faithful Christian Mormons are excommunicated by the whims of their leaders, and the devilish, abusive Section 6.7.3 justifies it.

    DC 121 unjustifies their action and revokes their priesthood while sharply rebuking them.

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  44. Continued (to Anonymous)

    You here openly defend that Satan-inspired Section of Handbook 1 rather than acknowledge it is evil and the choice words of tyrants who have "legalized" (in their puny minds) their oppression.

    I'm a mirror in this case. Please do not be angry with me.

    "Give me some objective facts," you demand? In my mind, using "objective" to describe "facts" is redundant. I guess in your mind some facts are subjective. You are wanting to philosophize away the facts. "That rose is red only because you believe it's red. Who's to say it's red?" Let's move past this type of philosophical silliness.

    I've given you irrefutable facts. You insist on quoting the Machiavellian "greater good", or collectivist/ communist moral/ethical relativism to argue your points. This philosophy you undoubtedly picked up in (law?) school from an influential teacher who was infected by the propaganda of the state. Conversely, I believe in universal truth. If you did, you would find yourself making concessions not to me but to reason, to Truth. But you doggedly argue and always fall back on the situational ethics model you've adopted as truth.

    That's fine and dandy if it works for you. I allow you to worship your god according to the dictates of your conscience. As for me and my house, we will serve an unchangeable God who finds those hiding in darkness an abomination and who promises to ultimately bring all hidden things to Light.

    Thanks for your advice. As an active member I have openly confessed in large group meetings that I was practicing idolatry by putting the Brethren on too high a pedestal. I have openly taught that the Brethren are not infallible and it's priestcrsft to suggest otherwise. Being in a position to participate in disciplinary councils, I have been an influence for righteous judgment and fair proceedings. I have also been able to unwearingly teach the principles enshrined in DC 121 and let me say that there has been no rebuttal even though my points were not received by friendly ears. They weren't as bold as you to argue as you have. I seek as a wheat to preserve the restoration among many tares, such as yourself. And I respect your position as a tare, let me say. I get it. I see how the battle is shaping up. I fully expect excommunication eventually. Socially it'll be a big pain in the butt, but a sacrifice I've made in the past years ago, like Denver. It's a price disciples are frequently called upon to make.

    There is an everlasting war between slavery and Liberty. Our discussion has been a part of it.

    Listen, we have had a good conversation. We all have tried to persuade each other. It's hopefully not been a vain exercise. Thank you for sharing your views.

    I wish you the best.

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  45. To All:

    Thank you for the lively discussion. I've been falsely accused of missing the big picture, so I'll clarify it here:

    Only truth can save any of us. And truth only gets into this world through mortals. God communicates it to whom He will, and they must communicate it to the rest of the world.

    This is where it gets interesting. The game is afoot, and the challenge is to discern truth from error. To the extent we believe falsehood, we are damned—meaning, prevented from making progress toward God.

    Those who teach false traditions as if they are God’s truth damn themselves and anyone who will listen to them. And that’s the point of this whole post.

    Whether you’re an LDS apostle, or the lowliest “nobody,” it matters how you respond to truth. If you reject truth in favor of a false tradition, your heart is hard and you are damned. The LDS church continuing to teach false traditions in contradiction of fact is only one example. I wrote this piece primarily to help those who are relying on such false traditions to have the courage to question and perhaps change their understanding.

    If you love truth above all else, you will gladly jettison your old understanding in favor of it. To the extent you fight for and defend your false tradition, you do not love truth.

    It’s possible to debate each other in circles endlessly, but sadly, it won’t accomplish much. In the end, what matters is how willing we each are to humble ourselves and seek answers from God. He is the ultimate source of all truth, including that which comes to us through other mortals.

    I realize there are, and will continue to be, those who utterly reject what I teach. That’s OK. Go in peace, and seek answers from God. He speaks to me and He will speak to you.

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  46. I have a question for all of you ... Denver recently wrote about the Council of Fifty and at the end of his post he said:

    Ask yourself: Why would Joseph, knowing the “kingdom” and the “church” were entirely separate, choose to have himself anointed a “king and priest” in the Council of Fifty, and NOT in the church? There is something important to be found in the answer. An answer you will have to find for yourself because very few LDS know much about this. Unfortunately, they are too busy “not being led astray” by men who claim to probably have the “keys of the kingdom,” (at least most likely may have–probably from the morning of March 26, 1844).

    So this is my question ... why would Joseph have himself anointed as priest and king by "mortals", whereas he was given the priesthood by Peter James and John. The whole being anointed as priest and king was something Joseph did himself ... no heavenly being came to do that. Why would Joseph take it upon himself to do this very importance anointing? The pattern in scripture is the Lord divided the powers among the prophets, priests and kings in order to insure that no pride entered in. It was during this time period that Joseph was Mayor of Nauvoo, he wanted to be President of the United States and he also wanted to be king of the world. The only one who is Prophet Priest and King is Jesus Christ.

    Though none of you want to inquire of the Lord regarding the possibility that Joseph erred, I don't understand it. For in scripture all of God's servants made mistakes, they sinned, and most repented. Moses was not able to enter the promised land because he had taken the life of another. David caused Uriah to be killed and that is the reason David was not allowed to build the temple.

    Joseph was in good company ... a servant of the Lord but also one who succumbed to pride for a time and then repented. But because of the sin of polygamy and joining in with the Masons, Joseph's patriarchal blessing was invalidated. Joseph was trying to sort out sealings but if you look in scripture, nowhere in any scripture is anyone sealed to the patriarchs. We are to be sealed directly to Jesus Christ ... not having any man in the way of that. Denver has done a great work but he it not infallible ... too many people I know who have received the Second Comforter, also later have been deceived, led others astray. Denver's obsession with preserving the restoration really has no merit if you read D&C 77 closely. In that the restoration of all things is yet a future event with regard to the four angels.

    You are all very smart and good people - I know many of you. But until the idolatry of Joseph is put aside, you shall not see the bigger picture. The remnant happens to be all of the Bride of Christ - it is global - it is not this small portion of LDS. Joseph did an amazing job with translating the BOM and Pearl of Great Price and receiving other revelations. But we are like the Jews who idolize Moses, Abraham, Jacob and Isaac ... and because of that they have been stinted in their spiritual understanding.

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    1. Anonymous,

      You are questioning things you know nothing about. You are also accusing Joseph of sins he did not commit. (No this is not idolatry on my part. I would defend anyone who is falsely accused in this way.)

      Your questions are based on a menu of false assumptions and misunderstandings.

      It reminds me of the analogy of the steel ship. Since steel doesn't float, why on earth would you build a ship out of it? That's foolishness!

      Of course that line of reasoning is based on a single true premise (steel doesn't float) but then assumes much and ignores much to reach the conclusion that a steel ship won't float.

      Your questions about Joseph are similar in many ways. You have a very small part of the picture and you use it to bring questions and accusations that do not apply.

      I hesitate to even publish such false accusations, but I thought it would be instructive in this case.

      Delete
    2. Adrian,

      The analogy of the steel ship is instructive. What is the remedy to faulty logic, reason and conflation?

      It's no doubt tricky to discern truth.

      Even if it's spelled out in our own language as plain as can be, we cannot teach or comprehend truth with our own faculties. The Lord explained here:

      DC 76:116: "Neither is man capable to make [the works of the Lord and mysteries of his kingdom] known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him."

      The unavoidable path to knowledge is to become holy and pure before the Lord, in short, to believe in Christ, to repent, to be baptized and to become as a little child (3 Nephi 11).

      Thank for your blog and attempting to teach light and knowledge which you are not forbidden to share.

      I realize that even with available plain, true teachings, truth is not learned unless it's bestowed upon us "by the power of the Holy Spirit."

      In other words, we may find ourselves asking incoherent questions like why build a ship out of steel since steel doesn't float. There's no telling how many false assumptions and misunderstandings I've not yet identified, but which I think are true. That's a depressing and terrifying idea because these unknown unbeliefs have great power to damn us.

      May God "help mine unbelief!" (Mark 9).

      Delete
    3. Anonymous,

      For sure Joseph was not a polygamist. There never was a righteous people who were asked to practice the abomination.

      One thing no one has been able to answer up for in accusing Joseph of this heinous practice. Here it is... Joseph stated that the Book of Mormon was the Most correct of all books. In it, on at least three occasions, once in Mosiah 11, once Jacob 2, and again in Ether 10. In the Jacob reference it is condemned soundly over and over and over, but it also states:
      23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

      24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

      They sought to excuse themselves using David and Solomon. Then Jacob states clearly that the practice was an abomination to God.

      Now go to 132 of the D&C and read the opening intro... Joseph would not have to ask the Lord such a question. He would not. It is utterly ridiculous.

      Delete
  47. Adrian,

    Others who have had the Second Comforter completely disagree with Denver re: Joseph and polygamy ... And I'm not here to bash Joseph because he did great things but to say I know nothing about things is rather presumptuous because you have no idea if I've received the Second Comforter, if I've seen things and talked with Joseph, etc etc. I'm here to put light on things. While you are all busy getting ready to build a temple as Denver has the blueprints, none are questioning whether that is what should be done. Why are there so many different people having so many different experiences? Are there just different categories of remnants? God allows us to believe what we want to until such a time as we seriously seek the truth. Go read Josephs patriarchal blessing and ask why portions were not realized.

    Joseph Sr. says Joseph’s work was for his generation – it states it plainly … Joseph is promised that he will overcome his enemies and that he and his children will inherit Zion. That did not happen. Thou shalt escape the edge of the sword, and put to flight the armies of the wicked. That did not happen. Same is true with the blessing Oliver gave to Joseph Smith – “He shall remain to a good old age, even till his head is like the pure wool.” That did not happen.

    For those of you who don't realize the importance of the land of Israel in our endtimes wrap-up, then you will be caught unawares. For instance, how many pay attention to the Messianic Jonathan Cahn and his books and what is revealed in the bible, the Shemitah and so forth? Did you know The greatest global crash (Brexit) when England seceded from the European Union happened on June 24, 2016. It’s the greatest crash – since Elul 29 – if you take that same moment on the stock market 9/29/2008 of 777.7 points and you go forward, 7 years, 7 months, 7 weeks and 7 days you get to this summer – June 24th of this summer - the day of the Brexit – the greatest global crash.

    The remnant is so much bigger than the LDS preserving the restoration. It is global ... go read D&C 77 ... the restoration did not happen with Joseph - it is a future event.

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    Replies
    1. Anonymous,

      Receiving the Second Comforter does not make you an authority on anything, or more knowledgeable than anyone else, with the obvious exception that you know the Lord. To speak as if that makes someone an authority is a mistake. It is also a mistake to assume Denver's mission or knowledge stems solely from having received the Second Comforter.

      Yes, the Lord is most certainly working with other people and groups in various ways. I don't dispute that.

      As for different people having different experiences, some are of God, some are not. "Piercing the veil" is just as likely to expose you to a deceptive spirit as a truthful one. Perhaps even more likely. Many seek and receive spiritual experiences. Some are deceived, some are not. The challenge remains the same on both sides of the veil: to discern truth from error, light from darkness.

      Delete
  48. Adrian,

    I don't mean to be a thorn in your side, but your writing that: And so this brings us back to where we started. The religion of Joseph Smith—which is the religion of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Enoch, Elijah, Nephi and Jesus Christ—brings men into literal contact with Gods. It worked for ancient believers. It worked for Joseph Smith. It has worked for people now living who can testify first hand. God wants it to work for you, as well.

    I have to completely disagree. Joseph connected with God because of his pure heart ... the LDS religion was non-existent when Joseph connected to heaven ... so many people outside the LDS faith have also connected to God the Father and Jesus and other heavenly beings. You do not have to be a member of the LDS church to do that. In fact it seems that the Pentecostal movements has produced more people who are experiencing Jesus and Father than anyone in the LDS church. So how do you account for that?

    I am in complete agreement with you regarding having the Second Comforter does not give anyone authority ... hallelujah! You said it ... so why then do all of you follow Denver and do not question anything he teaches? He does not talk about the Davidic Servant (which he is not --- Louis is completely wrong in that assessment - talk to others with the SEcond Comforter and they will say absolutely not). Denver never talks about what the Lord has shown him while others on the globe are warning people of what the Lord has shown them. Denver is so obsessed with Joseph ... He should be obsessed with Christ and what is coming ... Denver should be so centered on Christ but instead he is centered on Joseph and the restoration ... which hasn't happened yet. Read D&C 77 - you haven't addressed that.

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  49. And one other thing Adrian, do you not think it is odd that while all these other Christians are talking about the return of the King of Kings and Lord or Lords and some of the disasters that are coming while Denver mainly talks about Joseph and the restoration? I'm so sorry but Jesus trumps Joseph every time and this is a very good opportunity for everyone to look at who they are spending time with ... are you spending more time on restoration and Joseph stuff, or time with the Lord. I just think it is so odd that you all are defending Joseph to the death, yet in the process you are ignoring the most important event that will ever happen - the return of our God.

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  50. I think why the Lord works with different people in various ways is because we are not all made from the same mold nor were we meant to be. The Lord works with us where we are individually.

    Consider the interesting fact that no two people have the exact finger print. Wouldn't this speak to how far the Lord will go to keep us individual, why not in our walk towards Him. Eventually every knee shall bow and confess Jesus is the Christ.

    Also, consider Jacob 4:14. The Lord gave them what they desired... But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

    In the end, a message we received in our spiritual immaturity may be interpreted differently than it would be later in life after more spiritual experience and maturity brings greater knowledge and understanding.

    I believe that some do not understand what they are to do with some Spiritual information. I know one person who was told they were a prophet and they thought it meant they were to lead the lds church. It wasn't, but because he thought that was what it meant, he did things that got himself arrested.

    The Lord told us we should not try to put new wine in old bottles for a reason. We are to go slowly enough that the Lord can give us our work here one step at a time. Too many rush to judgment and mess up what the Lord would do with them in His time and way and place.

    Too often we try and pin down the Lord into a pattern of sorts and we don't allow Him to work outside that pattern. But Joseph said that to try and stop the Lord from pouring down 'stuff' upon the 'saints' would be like trying to stop the mighty Mississippi River with a puny arm of flesh. (or something like that)

    We don't have to know or understand or even accept what the Lord is doing (or Satan for that matter) in others lives, in order to be spiritually ready to do what we are being asked to do by Him.

    The Lord said in John; Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. (John 21:15)

    The Lord essentially told him it wasn't his business. In another place (Mark 9) ...And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
    But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
    For he that is not against us is on our part.

    All in all, we need to conscentrate upon what the Lord is telling us and not try and control or try and make everyone else do what we do.

    If we are told to share what we receive. Then we should do it. If people don't want what we are sharing, then they should go their way. If we are called to warn and expose evil, then we should do that, even if some are bothered by it. And if some are bothered by it they should maybe check out what they are doing because the Lord taught through Nephi that the wicked take the truth to be hard.

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  51. Anonymous,

    You stated: Go read Josephs patriarchal blessing and ask why portions were not realized.

    Joseph Sr. says Joseph’s work was for his generation – it states it plainly … Joseph is promised that he will overcome his enemies and that he and his children will inherit Zion. That did not happen. Thou shalt escape the edge of the sword, and put to flight the armies of the wicked. That did not happen. Same is true with the blessing Oliver gave to Joseph Smith – “He shall remain to a good old age, even till his head is like the pure wool.” That did not happen.

    I will say this to all of these:

    It isn't over until it is over. Did Christ put down all His enemies under His feet yet?

    Do you actually think that blessing meant what you think it means? If God's thoughts are not our thoughts, how can we know?

    I will share a piece of my husband's blessing that his parents didn't think he fulfilled. It stated that he would receive his desired education. My husband's father was a teacher and then a principal. He was sure his son was to follow in his footsteps. But my husband's 'desired' education was not in the education field, but rather in the industrial and carpentry fields. He loved working with wood. Even when little he was turning stuff out on lathes and creating things out of nothing. He hated school. He wasn't good in it at all.

    He did receive his 'desired' education and has obtained unto the highest ranking of master craftsman and carpenter. He has worked on a couple of lds temples and many of their chapels. Where you see fine woodwork, or custom built decor, you can bet my husband had something to do with it all across the country.

    So what I am saying is... do you know the mind of God well enough to say Joseph didn't complete or will not eventually complete all that was promised to him in his blessing?

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  52. I think it's wrong to attack Elder Holland like this. He's had a very difficult situation in his life battling mental illness. He's done so much to help those who are going through similar difficulties. I cannot sit idly by while you insult his heartfelt testimony after all he's been through and all he's done for others. You should be ashamed for these petty attacks.

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    1. Clearly, you've misunderstood the whole point of the article. It is not intended as an insult against Jeff Holland at all. As I pointed out we've ALL devoted ourselves to fairy tales in one way or another. He has, you have, I have. That's just a fact.

      How you respond to finding out the truth is what matters. If you continue to insist on believing the fairy tale and teaching it to others, it's a problem. If you do it "in the name of Jesus Christ" while leading them down to Hell and pretending you "cannot lead them astray" it is damnable.

      Not an insult. Just the truth. Excuse it if you will, but you'll be very much on the opposite side of the Lord, who cannot and will not excuse such behavior without repentance.

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    2. What would you have Elder Holland do?

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  53. Anonymous,

    I am surprised you believe that we talk more about Joseph Smith than Christ. All that was spoken about is the Doctrine of Christ and His atonement, His baptism, and His teachings.

    Joseph was HIS prophet, bringing forth HIS words. How else do we get HIS words.

    If we contend for Joseph it is to go back to what the Lord actually had done and said by a true prophet. It is about going back to the pure doctrine. We have to go to Joseph in order to get rid of the corruption from Brigham Young.

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    1. Sandra,

      Thank you for your thoughtful response. I do believe Joseph to be a prophet. But even though you do not believe he participated in polygamy, if it hadn't have been for polygamy the church would have grown so much bigger and the stain of this terrible sin would have not and continues to affect thousands upon thousands. Everyone want to put the blame solely on Brigham and John Bennett and don't get me wrong I think their participation is horrid. However, Brigham did do some really good things and I have come to realize God will use any of us to fulfill his purposes. What I am concerned with is that there is no preserving the restoration for it is the One Mighty and Strong to gather all of us, all churches, races, cultures and restore all truth. ldsawakening did a great job in his analysis below. If Joseph had not participated in polygamy why did he state to Pres. Marks that he had made a mistake and he needed to fix it because it would be the ruin of the church. William Clayton did a daily diary and if you area aware of that it is specific in that Joseph did practice it, though it may have been only for a short time before he came to his senses. You are not hearing me when I tell you that there is no pattern in any other scripture that God anoints someone to be prophet, priest and king ... and God uses patterns, he institutes them for a reason. Joseph for a time became prideful ... who wouldn't? He had amazing gifts and everyone wanted to spend time with this young man. He allowed Rigdon to influence him as he allowed Brigham and Bennett. But he repented ... God forgives all of us. DO I think he is a fallen prophet? No ... I think he made grave errors in adopting masonic rituals and polygamy. I would suggest everyone come to a neutral place ... not wanting to believe one way or another and ask God about it. As long as you don't have any preconceived ideas, he will give you the answer. I also recommend reading David Whitmer's address to all believers ... it has some profound things in it. He loved Joseph ... he never denied the BOM .. so why would he leave Joseph? It is a complicated issue. Why are there no children from Joseph? Well first of all I don't think he was having sex with a whole lot of women ... second, there are women who are not fertile. My sister for instance could only get pregnant every three years even though she never used any type of protection. But reading David Whitmer explains a lot of things. So many believe that Joseph stands next to Christ in doing more for our salvation than any other man ... which I find so troubling. Only Christ was able to give us salvation. And if you are going to idolize Joseph for a restoration, why not put NOah up there as he saved the human race, or why not Adam for he started the human race, or what about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Do you see how we have traded our worship of Jesus to Joseph? Do you see that we need to be completely centered on Jesus and not the restoration? There are too many around the world who are not LDS experiencing piercing the veil ... the miracles that are happening with other people coming to personally know God and healing is incredible but you have to step out of the box of the LDS religion. According to Denver, only the restoration has the keys to parting the veil ... which is completely against scripture for God is accessible to anyone and everyone. He is not a respecter of persons ... He doesn't care what religion you belong to ... he cares about your heart. If you think we have to show signs and tokens when we enter heaven then you will be surprised when you are not having to show any of those things we have been taught in the temple, which was instituted by Joseph. TAke a leap and start looking at other people who are not LDS who have met the Lord, who have been washed, anointed and sealed to Him and who walk with Him. It is profoundly beautiful.

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  54. This post has unbelievable legs, Adrian.

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  55. Just like anonymous I too wonder what to make of Denver Snuffer. In many ways he looks so much like a true messenger. The movement he has begun is fascinating. More and more of his followers are claiming now to have pierced the veil and seen Christ. I didn't see that coming. I believe that Denver and all of those who have accepted him as a true messenger are sincere. In spite of their sincerity one still has to wonder if they have actually seen Christ. Either they truly have or they are all deceived. I would love to believe that they have seen Him, because it would certainly make things easier for all of us who have awakened to the knowledge that the church is now in a state of apostasy. All we would have to do is faithfully follow Denver's teachings and eventually we would would find ourselves in the presence of Christ and receive the promise of eternal life. Who wouldn't want that. That is the pinnacle of our earthly existence. Nothing can surpass that.

    On the flip side what if Denver and his followers are deceived? Then following them is very dangerous. The truth is there are many out there who claim to have the truth, and many claim to have seen Christ. Because they teach such different things at most only one of the many groups can be right. There's a good chance they're all false.

    Anonymous makes an excellent point when he states that Denver doesn't spend much if any time speaking about the last days prophet who will come to gather Israel and establish Zion. In the scriptures this last days prophet is very clearly identified as the Davidic Servant, Davidic King, or the one mighty and strong. This man is mentioned all throughout the scriptures and the mission he is to lead is very different from what Denver and the remnant are trying to accomplish. The fact is that Denver cannot be this person. As far as I'm aware of there is no prophecy in the scriptures for what Denver is doing. In fact just opposite is true. The scriptures teach that the humble followers of Christ (His sheep) will continue to be lost and led astray by those who should be their sheppards (the church leadership) right up until the Davidic Servant shows up. This is documented in many places. Ezekiel 34 is especially good at documenting this. In Isaiah it says that Zion will be born in a day. The scriptures also say that Zion must needs be redeemed with power. For all of the good things Denver, Adrian, and others are teaching, their misconception of how Zion is to be established is a huge red flag.

    I think if Denver would do nothing but testify of his experience of being visited by Christ and do all he could to lead people unto Him then I believe that he would be a legit messenger. As it stands I don't see how he could actually be what he claims to be.

    Anonymous is correct that Denver is obsessed with Joseph Smith. I would say to the point of idolatry. At this point Joseph no longer matters. Yes we should be doing all we can to live the pure and simple gospel as restored through him (before it became corrupted), but without the proper authority or calling we can't fix what is broken. All we can do is wait for the Lord to send forth Elias (the one mighty and strong/Davidic servant) to fix things. It is his calling to do this. Anyone else is streadying the ark.

    Of course we should be doing all we can to live righteously and come unto Christ in the meantime. We shouldn't be trying to bring again Zion though. We don't have that authority and neither does Denver. So where does that leave us with Denver and his claims of being a true messenger sent by the Lord?

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  56. Underdog,

    I appreciate your sincerity in your discussion with anonymous. Quick question, you mentioned that you are still active at church and are even involved in disciplinary councils. I'm assuming your a member of the high council. How do you reconcile your belief that the brethren are completely apostate with holding a current temple recommend? Don't you believe in being honest? How can you sustain them as prophets, seers, and revelators as required, when you know they are not? How can you sustain them when you know they are leading the membership astray?

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    1. Ldsawakening,

      I think what you wrote above is genuine in your post at 10:14 pm last night. I don't see you being hardhearted, which is refreshing. You acknowledge the LDS Church leadership is now in a state of unbridled apostasy which is an impossible confession for most Mormons to fathom much less utter.

      You are aware that the Lord commanded Denver to read Ezek 34 verbatim without commentary?

      You said, "I think if Denver would do nothing but testify of his experience of being visited by Christ and do all he could to lead people unto Him then I believe that he would be a legit messenger. As it stands I don't see how he could actually be what he claims to be."

      I don't understand your point. He pretty much does nothing but testify of Christ and His gospel and does all he can to lead people to Christ THUS he acts like a true messenger. His message is rabidly anti priestcraft and he seeks to destroy idolatry in the land and pleads for people to repent and believe in Christ and be baptized. What else do you want from him? He's not going to tell us the facial features of Jesus, but he is teaching Christ's doctrine and pleading for people to repent. Sounds like one of the prophets in Jerusalem circa 600 BC.

      He testifies that he's only revealing a fraction of what's been revealed to him following Alma 12:9's strict command to impart only what God wants imparted.

      He rebukes rather frequently priestcraft as he sees it. He rebukes those who would follow him and seems to have frank disdain for those type of "followers", saying that's the thinking that has got the LDS people to the state of apostasy they're mired in now.

      MY experience since discovering him 10 months ago is that I've developed a relationship with Heavenly Father like never before. I feel the word "swelling within my breasts" and can testify it's "delicious" to me (Alma 32). I can say I've had many revelations before and after getting re-baptized. I've not had any Pentecostal experiences since being baptized, but knowledge is flowing to me. For that I'm grateful .

      I feel growth in knowledge (or "keys", see above comments) which I pray is preparing me for an audience with the Lord in His due time. Just this morning I thought H.F. spoke to my mind as I was praying out in the forest (the Holy Spirit is the mind of Christ, per LoF) saying that the following precious revelation to me, and which would apply to all reading this.

      He told me he wants to reveal Himself to me. That He wants to have friends with whom He can take up His abode with. That He DOES have such friends, and He wants more. He has so much He WANTS to share with me, but I am not ready. I must qualify, He tells me. Then He reminded me of personal things/ goals I have which I need to work on, i.e., items of repentance. He said to me that He IS giving me knowledge. He was very positive and encouraging.

      My point is that my relationship with God has blossomed thanks in no small measure to Denver helping inform me of my idolatry. That alone is a big deal. He broke me free from the terrible bondage of depending on the arm of flesh.

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    2. To Ldsawakening (continued):

      As to your question of how I reconcile my belief that the brethren are completely apostate with holding a temple recommend, that is a good question!

      I view that T.R. question with a loose interpretation, as I believe those who demand it be asked view it loosely as well. Obviously if ANY of the Brethren were compared to the standard gifts that Joseph or Denver manifested, they would not qualify. So THEY have quite a loose definition, wouldn't you agree?

      What they inevitably must mean is that they hold status, or certain office IN THE INSTITUTION. I respect them as the institution's leaders. Pres. Monson as corporate sole is a very powerful man. I do sustain them and cheer them on in their DUTY "to be like unto Moses" and to have "all the gifts of God..." (DC 107:91-92). Though they are not producing such fruit, and would love for them to have such fruit.

      I realize I'm in a delicate situation. It's a bit of a charade of sorts to fly below the radar, but I look at it as being in a position to preserve the restoration from within, like as a Trojan Horse (the Lord uses the wheat and tares analogy). Denver has encouraged us to find the good and participate. The Lord says to me, I believe, that He's good with me attending and to expect a time for me to bear bold and public testimony of Denver. Still, I have borne testimony of many true things that rock the boat, but I'm not totally transparent. That day will come. Perhaps it's just around the corner. Excommunication and shunning may follow. It'll be a pain, but Christ was crucified, Joseph and Hyrum were murdered, Denver has been "marred" (3 Nephi 21:10). I expect God's judgment to soon be upon us as a nation of Gentiles because we are rejecting the God of this land (Ether 2:8).

      Heck, the Russian people are preparing for nuclear war at this very month. Their people are preparing with underground bunkers and food storage and are at a level of urgency as Americans were in the early 1960's. We're on the brink of WW III and the people here are asleep to that threat and most are absolutely asleep in relationship to what God is saying through the prophet. I do expect something more definitive, in the tradition of Amos 3:7, but perhaps it's been given already. Historically, death by the sword and starvation are proven means of awakening the people (Hel 12:3). I see no reason to expect a different recourse this time around.

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  57. ldsawakening,

    Onace my husband and I were baptized through this movement, our eyes were opened in a miraculous way. We actually have the Holy Ghost teaching us and opening the scriptures to us daily.

    One cannot know without the contrast, just how blind he is until they see clearly.

    Those who haven't had Christ come to them, can't conceive of this happening as often as it does.

    I was just thinking about this early today on waking up. I was pondering and an urgent need rose up in me to tell everyone who visits here and on Denver's blogs, to go and get baptized. Take the step of faith and see what is waiting for you.

    Then I come to the blog and see your posts. Seriously ldsawakening, request a baptism and do it. Talk with the Lord after that and see the difference putting works to faith can make.

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  58. Btw ldsawakening,

    It isn't about putting your faith in a man, but rather in Christ. Isn't it interesting that Denver and Adrian are focused upon when the doubts of their callings from God come up... and it is these same people and these who doubt Adrian and Denver's place complain about not focusing enough on Christ.

    Don't focus upon the messengers, focus upon Christ who they do obey and serve.

    Obey the doctrine of Christ, repent, be baptized and follow Christ and Christ only.

    Understand that the words of Christ came through prophets that were cast out and stoned in their day by the same mind set we are experiencing today.

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  59. ldsawakening ... thank you very much for your eloquent and succinct post. I am not good with words but you nailed it.

    Sandra, thank you for your comments ... I too was rebaptized, but it was before Denver's 10th lecture and afterwards I was specifically told not to follow Denver through a vision and have not felt that I was to again get rebaptized. Denver's mission was to get us out of the LDS box ... and he has done a great job of that. I believe the Lord has many different remnant groups he is working with, but like ldsawakening, I am waiting for the Davidic Servant to arise and when he does he will be gathering all Israel (people from all different religions, backgrounds, races, cultures). The bible is the foundation of all things and the BOM adds to it and Joseph's revelations and retranslation of the bible is awesome. What I'm concerned with is that because I do not believe Denver is THE SERVANT that when the Servant does arise, so many of you who believe Denver is the Servant will be confused and not recognize the Servant. When Louis testified that he knew Denver was the Marred Servant and Denver did not stand up and correct Louis, I was rather shocked because Denver is either allowing untruth to be put forward (and he spoken so many times of the evil that is) or Denver really believes he is THE SERVANT ... which I can testify that he is not.

    I have had my calling and election made sure .. I have been to heaven many times, and it is a marvelous and incredible thing. Like ldsawakening, if Denver spent his time testifying of Christ and helping others to have this experience, there would be hundreds upon hundreds of having their own personal witness of the Savior and they would go forth and do the same as Denver. For those close to Denver, ask him how many times he has stood in the presence of the Lord ...

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  60. Your reminder, Sandra, that we grow and benefit only by placing our faith in Jesus Christ is priceless and worth repeating endlessly. Whether we're inclined to agree with the opinions of Anonymous or Underdog, Jeffrey Holland or Denver Snuffer, only the Lord has the power to heal us and to save us. Remarkably, he will save every soul who accepts and abides by his doctrine. Adrian and Denver do us all a great favor by exploring why and how Christ alone is the way. Their detractors can verbally thumb-wrestle them all day long but there will come a moment when they, along with the rest of the human family, will face the Savior and acknowledge that saving power is his alone.

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  61. Sandra,

    You are absolutely correct that I could simply decide to get baptized and see what happens. Believe me I've thought about it.

    The problem is that it just isn't that simple. One has to first receive the witness by the Holy Ghost that it is right, before one can be baptized (or rebaptized). That's how it's always been. The witness must come before, not afterwards. Yes the Holy Ghost will absolutely confirm a valid baptism afterwards, but the initial witness has to come first. I actually would love to be rebaptized, but for me the question is if it is right. I have tried very hard to receive the witness that it is right and it has not come. In fact the witness I have received is that even though in many ways what Denver, Adrian, and others are doing looks so good and right, that something is off. I can't put my finger on exactly what is off, but something is. The biggest issue I have is a lack of scriptural support for what Denver, Adrian, and the rest are trying to accomplish.

    Like I said according to my understanding of the scriptures things are going to play out very differently than how Denver and Adrian envision it. The Davidic Servant and his mission are depicted quite clearly in the scriptures. It is through him that the Lord will establish Zion and gather the house of Israel. As far as a know the scriptures don't mention any other true messengers or prophets who play a role in this gathering besides the 144,000 and angels from heaven.

    Look at Ezekiel 34

    1 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

    2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

    3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.

    4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.

    5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.

    6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.

    Here the Lord is reproving the current church leadership for not feeding the flock the way they should. Look at verse 6. The Lord is saying that His sheep (the elect) are wandering over the whole earth and NONE are searching or seeking after them.

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    1. Just need to tell you ldsawakening, faith precedes the miracle. We need to act on faith. The Holy Ghost is so powerful now that I am baptized that I can only wonder how I functioned before when I thought I had the gift of the Holy Ghost but seldom was enlightened by Him.

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    2. Anonymous,

      It is important to be baptized by the 'right' person. If you have had a vision telling you not to follow Denver Snuffer, then follow that. I believe that when you are ready it will be a different story.

      As to the Davidic servant you are waiting for, I am shaking my head. The Jews were also left waiting. Out of small things are great things made. It is God's work, after all. He can do it His way.

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    3. ldsawakening,

      Denver was around for two years before I came upon him. Interestingly the Lord had given me so many revelations or answers in my own search that matched up almost verbatim with what Denver spoke in his lectures that I couldn't help but become interested.

      I too, waited almost a year to get baptized, thinking that I would get that confirmation that it was the right thing to do. But it was in the doing, that I received a peace and contentment. Then from there it grew into a daily walk with the gifts of the Spirit.

      I do totally understand what you are referencing when you say there is 'something off' with following Denver. I think it is the fact that we are not to follow Denver, but are to follow Christ. I don't think the Lord ever intended for us to look to a man for guidance.

      What the Lord has done through Denver Snuffer is marvelous and it does lead to finding our path to the Lord. But following or seeking after a man.. I don't think that even Denver has that in mind.

      Truth. Light. Jesus Christ. Does the shovel boast itself against the one working with it? It is a shovel. It is a means to an end. Jesus Christ is the truth, the light and the way. Follow after Him. Seek truth wherever you find it. In that truth, when found, you will find Christ.

      If Denver can take you just so far... be thankful and make sure you have gotten all you can from his 'movement' before you take any further steps. I seriously believe you are to be baptized through this movement. Humbly accepting what has already been given before asking for more from the Lord. Remember He said that those who reject what He offers, are not given more. But those who accept what He offers, more is given.

      Just my thoughts on the matter

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    5. I appreciate your journey in search of truth, ldsawakening. After teaching Gospel Doctrine for five years then reading Rock Waterman’s posts on Pure Mormonism I recognized in Denver Snuffer a true messenger. Not a true strongman but a humble soul willing to speak what the Lord tells him. Still, it took until just recently for me to make the leap of faith to being re-baptized. Oh, what a joyful moment that was.

      In hindsight, I probably could have gotten baptized a year ago and been a step closer to the goal. Like you perhaps, I kept waiting for a revelation telling me to step outside the six generations of LDS tradition in my family and heed Denver’s invitation from the Lord. That revelation you and I are hoping for simply may not come or we simply may not perceive it. Consider these remarkable words uttered by Jesus Christ himself:

      “1 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words unto Nephi, and to those who had been called, (now the number of them who had been called, and received power and authority to baptize, was twelve) and behold, he stretched forth his hand unto the multitude, and cried unto them, saying: Blessed are ye if ye shall give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I have chosen from among you to minister unto you, and to be your servants; and unto them I have given power that they may baptize you with water; and after that ye are baptized with water, behold, I will baptize you with fire and with the Holy Ghost; therefore blessed are ye if ye shall believe in me and be baptized, after that ye have seen me and know that I am.

      2 And again, more blessed are they who shall believe in your words because that ye shall testify that ye have seen me, and that ye know that I am. Yea, blessed are they who shall believe in your words, and come down into the depths of humility and be baptized, for they shall be visited with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and shall receive a remission of their sins.” (3 Nephi 12:1-2)

      Jesus announces that he has given the Twelve power to baptize and once baptized by those holding the actual power from Christ to baptized, He would baptize the believer with fire and the Holy Ghost—and this is a blessed thing. But in verse two he explains that those who believe in just the testimony of the Twelve and humble themselves to the point of being baptized are MORE blessed.

      God organizes and runs the universe on faith. (Lectures on Faith) When we exercise even a particle of faith in Jesus Christ and his father we connect with that power and God counts it to our benefit. Consider being baptized, brother. Take your concerns to the Lord and plead for the strength to exercise that faith.

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    6. That was so powerful. I love these scriptures. Thanks Patty.

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  62. Ezekiel 34 continued...

    I'm skipping some verses here for the sake of space. You should read the entire chapter for context.

    11 ¶For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

    12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

    13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

    The Lord Himself is going to search out His sheep, gather them, and feed them. The Lord tells us how he is going to accomplish this...

    23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

    24 And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.

    There it is. The Lord's servant David will be their shepherd and will feed them. The chapter goes right from the current apostasy to the gathering of Israel though the David Servant, without any other gathering or messengers in between.

    In addition to the many prophecies of the Davidic Servant in the scriptures, Joseph Smith also identifies him and his calling several times. Including in D&c 77, where he identifies who Elias is, and in TPJS 339, where he says that in the last days the kingdom will be given to a descendant of King David bearing his name.

    Like I said as far as I'm aware there is no mention of any other true messengers in the last days besides the Davidic Servant and the 144K. There are however quite a few scriptures warning of false prophets and even false Christs in the last days. As much as I hate to say it unless the scriptures contain a last days prophecy of someone like Denver or Adrian coming along as true messenger proceeding the David Servant and the 144K then I am left to conclude that they must be false prophets leading people to a false Christ. I really hate to say that, but that's what it comes down to. Either they are true messengers or they aren't. There can be no middle ground.

    I'm more than willing to be proven wrong. I'm no expert. If there are scriptures that support Denver's calling as a true messenger in the last days please show them to me, because I have not been able to find any.

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  63. ldsawakening,


    What about the mighty and strong one. When is he supposed to show up? I believe there are things you have yet to understand about the scripture in Ezekiel 34 you quoted. Something was shown to me just now reading it that would put your understanding out.

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    1. Sandra,

      Please elaborate on what was just shown to you about Ezekiel 34 that would put my understanding out. I can support my understanding from many different scriptures. I just chose Ezekiel 34, because in my opinion it's pretty easy to understand. I don't think anyone knows for certain when exactly the one mighty and strong will show up or the exact details of his mission, but the overall picture is pretty clear. He will gather Israel, including the lost 10 tribes to Zion. Zion is in Jackson County Missouri. The city of Enoch will descend from heaven to the spot designated by the Lord to Joseph Smith in the D&C. While it is true that Joseph Smith once said that Zion is all of North and America, who couldn't have been speaking of the city of Zion. The city of Zion were Christ will dwell during the millennium will be in Jackson County. The Davidic servant will be the king of Israel (or prince in Ezekiel) and Christ will be their God. Here's another prophecy about the Davidic servant being king of Israel.

      Hosea 3

      4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:

      5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.

      Verse 4 says among other things that the children of Israel will abide many days without revelation or the proper saving ordinances (due to them being changed and the authority being taken away). Then in the latter days they shall seek the Lord their God, and David their king. The LDS church identifies King David as Christ, but this is not correct. The Davidic servant is the forerunner to Christ, hence the Elias of D&C 77.

      If you have a different interpretation please enlighten me.

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    2. ldsawakening,

      First I will say your view is too lds based and not enough of the 'purpose' for which we are to use these Ezekiel and Hosea passages.

      The Ezekiel passage is all about Christ looking down and making judgment upon the wicked sheperds. It is telling the people back then that the Lord/Christ/Jehovah would use Babalonians to punish the wicked. And then later allow them to be freed. When it is speaking about 'the David' it is speaking about Christ. Read John 10 to get the meaning of this chapter 34 Ezekiel.

      So this chapter isn't looking for anyone named David... but rather the son of David/Jesus Christ. Jeremiah 23:5,30:9, and your own reference Hosea 3:5. These are all referencing Christ first coming. So Elias is John the Baptist whom Jesus said was Elias and was His forerunner.

      Of course we must look at this for what it means to us today. Today we know Christ will come and He is the good sheperd who will bring all together in one fold under Him. The forerunner is very likely Denver Snuffer picking up where Joseph Smith left off.

      I don't expect that all made a lot of sense but it is important when trying to understand prophecy that we do not put it in the wrong context adding what isn't really there.

      We are to see a 'type' of what is coming or rather what has happened in our day by reading what happened back then. The wicked leadership/sheperds have abuse their power and the people with it. We have the exact same problem today and again the prophecy of the Messiah but this time it will be the second coming.

      The Lord is the one coming to be the one sheperd and create one fold.

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    3. ldsawakeningn,

      You also stated:Verse 4 says among other things that the children of Israel will abide many days without revelation or the proper saving ordinances (due to them being changed and the authority being taken away).

      This happened after Joseph Smith died. It has been nigh onto 200 years without revelation or authority from God to have the saving ordinances. at least that is my opinion... I don't think everyone shares in that.

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    4. Sandra,

      I appreciate your sincerity and willingness to share your understanding. Interesting interpretation of Ezekiel 34 and Hosea 3.

      Yes Christ is of course the Good Shepherd as stated in John 10. No one is disputing that. However the Lord clearly identifies other people as shepherds as well. Hence His rebuke of the shepherds of Israel who are not doing their job correctly and leading the people astray.

      As for Jeremiah 23:5 and 30:9 I would say those are both prophecies of the Davidic servant. This may seem rather strange to you, but Christ is actually a type for the Davidic servant/king. By having Christ be a type for the Davidic king the Old Testament prophets could prophecy of both. They were literally prophesying of the Davidic king, because their prophecies where of the last days. However they were of course also prophesying of the Lord and savior Jesus Christ. The prophecies have dual fulfillments with the final fulfillment being the literal one. Just because the prophecy is literally of the Davidic king does not at all mean that he is equal to Christ, let alone superior. In fact the scriptures say just they opposite. David is Christ's servant and will be the king/prince of Israel and Christ their God. This is how it will be during the millennium. Look at this scripture in Ezekiel 37 which is clearly speaking of the millennium.

      23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

      24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

      25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

      26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

      27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

      You said my view is too LDS based. I'm not sure what you mean. It appears to me that you are the one who is looking at too much from the LDS perspective. It was Bruce R. Mckonkie who established the doctrine of the church that there was to be no one mighty and strong and that all these passages are actually referring to Christ. Christ is not two people. He can't reign as His own servant as prince or king of Israel while being their God as well.

      All of these passages I shared clearly show that there will be two rulers during the millennium and not one as taught by the church and most of Christianity. The Lord will be God living on earth, but the day to day operations and actual rule will be through His servant King David.

      Delete
    5. Sandra continued...

      You said that Elias is John the baptist. Take a look at these verses in D&C 77.

      9 Q. What are we to understand by the angel ascending from the east, Revelation 7th chapter and 2nd verse?

      A. We are to understand that the angel ascending from the east is he to whom is given the seal of the living God over the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, he crieth unto the four angels having the everlasting gospel, saying: Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And, if you will receive it, this is Elias which was to come to gather together the tribes of Israel and restore all things.

      14 Q. What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation?

      A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things.

      Joseph received this revelation long after John the Baptist and Christ had come and gone. It is clearly about the last days. In fact we learn form the Book of Mormon that John the Beloved was commissioned to write about the end of the world, which he did in the book of Revelation.

      In these verses the Lord clearly identifies who the last days Elias is. It is John the Beloved. By swallowing the book he was accepting the mission to gather Israel in the last days and restore all things. This makes sense because we know that John was translated and will live to the end of the earth. Joseph Smith also said that back in the 1840s John was with the lost 10 tribes preparing them for when they would be restored.

      If we are to believe that D&C 77 is a true revelation then the one mighty and strong cannot be Denver Snuffer of Joseph Smith.

      Like I mentioned earlier Joseph identified a last days Kind David separate from Christ as well in TPJS pg 339.

      I know this is a very difficult doctrine to accept because of our indoctrination in he church, but he scriptures are quite clear on this.

      Delete
    6. :) ldsawakening,

      You say that Jesus couldn't be His own servant, yet in Mosiah 15 He is His own Father. I am as far away being indoctrinated as one can get.

      I am not the one referring to D&C 77. Joseph wasn't a polygamist. That he was is also a lds view I don't have. I can give you two places that help you understand why many have come to the conclusion that Joseph was 'slandered' on that note. Clayton was one who was used by Brigham Young to doctor some papers. I don't trust the D&C any more.

      I do trust the Lord. I trust the Holy Ghost. I trust 'visitation from the other side.'

      I have had several experiences with the Lord. But the most memorable one was when I died and was brought before the Lord to speak face to face with Him.

      I had three dreams before I died that ended up being prophetic and being fulfilled by my death and conversation with the Lord.

      I had a visitation in the graveyard where my tiny 3month old daughter was buried. My experiences only increased as I realized that the other side was more 'reality' than this live here.

      Now, about Christ, John 10, and who has the power to gather all before the second coming. If it is to be a different David than Christ gathering all in one fold, then Christ wouldn't be able to fulfill all things ... especially being the sheperd/door who would bring all by His voice. No servant would be put there

      13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

      14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

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    7. ldsawakening,

      There are no lost 10 tribes. There are tribes who have been dispersed and are now located mainly in European peoples. They are on this earth among us all. These things require a lot more time and documentation than I feel comfortable putting here on someone else's blog.

      But suffice it to say that patriarchal blessings have allowed some revelation on this subject.

      Delete
    8. Sandra,

      I'm a little confused by your declaration that you trust your own spiritual experiences over the scriptures.

      You do know that their all false spirits going abroad through the earth, lying in wait to deceive. This is why so many people claim visions and spiritual manifestations that they attribute to God that do not harmonize with each other.

      The Lord's house is a house of order. Not all inspiration or visions come from God, in fact most must surely come from Satan. In order for new inspiration or revelation to be from the Holy Ghost it has to at least harmonize with other truth. There has to be a standard with which we can test inspiration, visions, etc. That standard is the word of God as contained in the scriptures. You must do what you think is right, but in my opinion you are headed down a very dangerous path, by putting your trust in visions and inspiration over the word of God in the scriptures.

      I'm not trying to down play your experiences and I hope I'm not offending you, but you do know that false spirits are out there deceiving right? You do know that Satan and his angels can appear to people in the form of an angel of light and can imitate virtually everything that God can, right?

      As to your comment that there are no lost 10 tribes, I'm not sure where you are getting that. The scriptures are quite clear that the lost 10 tribes are real. Where exactly they are no one knows for sure. Yes some of them are among us all, and perhaps all of them, but they are still lost and will eventually be gathered to Zion. The scriptures are crystal clear on that. I can dig up dozens of scriptures that say this.

      I doubt you care much about my advice, but may I suggest that you weigh all of your knew "knowledge" that you have received since being rebaptized against the word of God in the scriptures. This is the only way that you will ever know if what you have received is from God or not.

      Mosiah 15 does not say that Jesus is His own father. That is a trinitarian false doctrine of Satan. The scriptures and even the lectures on faith teach just the opposite.

      Yes there is that scripture out there that says that Christ is the keeper of the gate and that He applieth no servant there. That scripture doesn't mean that Christ never uses servants to accomplish His work. With the exception of His mortal ministry that how He almost exclusively operated. The BOM tells us that the 12 Nephite disciples will judge the decedents of Lehi and that they will in turn be judged by Christ's 12 apostles, who will judge the whole house of Israel.

      We have to look at ALL the scriptures to avoid deception, not just the ones that support what we believe or have "revealed" to us.

      Delete
    9. ldsawakening,

      I am surprised by your whole post here. Anyone who has actually experienced Christ face to face would never doubt what I have shared.

      Delete
  64. Adrian,

    I can see why Denver has disabled comments on his blog. Often comments are wonderful and enlightening and add much value but like in life there's falsehoods mingled with truths which we must sift through.

    For ldsawakening...

    You said: "One has to first receive the witness by the Holy Ghost that it is right, before one can be baptized (or rebaptized). That's how it's always been. The witness must come before, not afterwards. Yes the Holy Ghost will absolutely confirm a valid baptism afterwards, but the initial witness has to come first."

    My discernment and understanding immediately rejected everything you said above. It is patently false. I view this understanding (humbly stated) as fairly basic spiritual knowkedge but then you go on to hypothesize about the David servant which is not so basic.

    If you're not able to understand the basics, can you realistically expect to understand prophesy?

    Ether 12:6, one of the most famous Mormon scriptures of all time, states: "...dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until AFTER the trial of your faith." And the "after" may be a long time. Baptism by water itself guarantees no witness. But a witness or sign will come if you're faithful and patient. Ether 4:18 "...be baptized in my name; for he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned; and signs shall follow them that believe in my name" (compare Mormon 9:24).

    What is the point of faith if you're getting a witness beforehand? If discipleship were that easy!

    I know from experience that God works the way Ether 12:6 explains it. Faith precedes the miracle or witness. Ether 12 belabors that very point.

    Then you say, "As much as I hate to say it unless the scriptures contain a last days prophecy of someone like Denver or Adrian coming along as true messenger proceeding the David Servant and the 144K then I am left to conclude that they must be false prophets leading people to a false Christ. I really hate to say that, but that's what it comes down to. Either they are true messengers or they aren't. There can be no middle ground."

    Why is there no "middle ground"? Says who or what principle?? Why couldn't Christ call MULTIPLE prophets to declare repentance, just like happened in Jerusalem circa 600 BC? Lehi was just one prophet.

    Denver doesn't claim to be the Davidic servant or the one in 3 Nephi 21 or the mighty and strong one, as far as I have read. He says that you won't know until after the work has been accomplished. He speaks that way about latter-day prophecy in general. He says that if you knew God's plan then you could potentially subvert or interfere with it. So God works in mysterious ways for this reason. Furthermore it seems like claiming to be such a servant would be borderline priestcraft, in my mind. It is evident beyond dispute that Denver is completely anti priestcraft.

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    Replies
    1. Underdog,

      I get what you're saying with staying active at church. It's definitely tough. I would urge to be honest with yourself. You know that the brethren are apostate and leading the members astray. The scriptures (including Ezekiel 34) are very clear about that. I believe that we bring condemnation upon ourselves if we continue to sustain them when we know better. That's just my opinion though.

      I was not aware that Denver had read Ezekiel 34 from beginning to end without commentary and that he claims the Lord commanded him to do that. I wonder what the purpose to that was.

      I'm a little confused at what you're saying about Denver and the one mighty and strong. Are you suggesting that Denver is the marred servant from 3 Nephi 21:10 (which would make him the one mighty and strong) and that he's just not claiming that title out of humility? Or are you saying he's not the one mighty and strong, but still the marred servant? I'm a little confused.

      Also in you're opinion how has Denver been marred? I suppose he was excommunicated, but that's hardly special. He hasn't even been discredited. There is a sizable group out there that believes that Joseph Smith is the one mighty and strong and that he's coming back to finish his work. They believe that he was marred when he was murdered in Nauvoo and also that his reputation has been marred. I don't personally believe that the one mighty and strong is Joseph Smith, because the scripture point to him being John the Beloved (look at D&C 77), but at least those who think it is Joseph have a decent argument.

      Delete
  65. Anonymous, you said:

    "I have had my calling and election made sure .. I have been to heaven many times, and it is a marvelous and incredible thing. Like ldsawakening, if Denver spent his time testifying of Christ and helping others to have this experience, there would be hundreds upon hundreds of having their own personal witness of the Savior and they would go forth and do the same as Denver. For those close to Denver, ask him how many times he has stood in the presence of the Lord ..."

    I do doubt your experience came from God because of the documented erroneous and confused thinking you've demonstrated in your above comments. I have heard of New Agers (the occult) having glorious visions of what they THOUGHT was heavenly visions or visitations from angels of light, and later testify it was of the devil and they felt profoundly lucky and blessed, through the power of Christ, to actually escape Satan's bondage.

    I suppose it's possible for you to have had experiences as you testify and later be deceived. But I would expect light and truth emanating from your comments and not confusion and unrighteous dominion, as you have proved by your endorsement of Handbook 1 Section 6.7.3. In my opinion it's transparently obvious you are deceived and of an elitist brand. You're not even a good fake. See Moses 1:15.

    Denver HAS spent his time doing what you challenge him. I'm befuddled that you've come up with that outlandishly inaccurate criticism of him. And the question you ask of his friends is a bad question. It wreaks of voyeurism and knowing the answer proves nothing you would want it to prove. He rebukes such voyeuristic curiosity.

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  66. Sandra,

    Just read your comments. Good ones again that occurred to my mind as well. Thanks.

    Underdog

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  67. Underdog,

    I appreciate the work you have done here as well.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Underdog continued...

    As to your comment that I can't possibly understand the prophecy in Ezekiel correctly, because I don't understand the simple doctrine of faith, I'm also a little confused. The scriptures and early church history are full of accounts of people who received the witness of the Holy Ghost first and were then baptized. Think about all of the Lamanites who were converted through the labors of Ammon and his brethren. Think about Alma who baptized at the waters of Mormon. He was first converted. He taught those who believed in the wilderness in secret for a time before he baptized them. Read through some of the conversion stories of the early saints in the 1830s and 1840s. Many, if not all of them, testified to receiving a witness that the Book of Mormon was true and that they should be baptized before they agreed to baptized.

    I get what you're saying about not receiving a witness until the trial of one's faith. However one must have some knowledge or guidance from the Holy Ghost first. You can't just follow every voice crying lo here and lo there and then see if the witness comes afterwards or not. There must be a witness of the Holy Ghost first. Then after one follows that witness in faith, then more knowledge will be added. Then when one follows that knowledge in faith, even more knowledge will be added, an so on. At least that's what Joseph Smith taught. It's why he went into the grove to pray to know which church to join. He needed the Lord's direction BEFORE who could act. The way you put it he should have just been baptized a Methodist since he was partial to that faith, and it seemed the most correct to him at the time. I think we can both agree that that would not have been correct, and yet that's what your saying people should be doing now, if I understand you correctly.

    If you think I'm misinterpreting Ezekiel 34 please show me where I am wrong. Please produce a evidence in the scriptures that point to Denver being a legit messenger. The scriptures are the word of God, which was represented by the iron rod in Lehi's vision. We are to hold fast to the word of God of we wish to avoid deception. If Denver is a true messenger what he is doing should be verifiable in the scriptures. How else can we avoid deception?

    I'm aware of how the calling and ministries of past prophets went down. You point to Lehi in 600 BC. Lehi had many prophecies (we just don't have most of them because the Book of Lehi was lost by Martin Harris). Lehi's contemporaries produced many prophecies, just look at Jeremiah. What prophecy has Denver produced? I'm not aware of any, let alone ones that compare to Joseph Smith, or Jeremiah, or Isaiah, or Ezekiel, or scores of others.

    I favorite deflection by those who accept Denver as a true messenger is that it's not about the messenger. That's Denver's claim as well. However is that founded in scripture? Don't the scriptures tell us to prove all things and to judge those among us in the latter days appearing to be prophets by their fruits to see if they are false prophets?

    Besides preaching about Christ and expounding the scriptures (which many, many people do), what fruits does Denver put forth that verify that he is a true prophet. People's claims to a witness that he is what he claims doesn't count. False spirits can give a witness, too. What are Denver's fruits and what scriptures support his claims?

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  69. Underdog,

    I forgot to answer one of your questions in my response.

    You asked,

    "Why is there no "middle ground"? Says who or what principle?? Why couldn't Christ call MULTIPLE prophets to declare repentance, just like happened in Jerusalem circa 600 BC? Lehi was just one prophet."

    The answer is that of course Christ COULD call multiple prophets. However those prophets would have to all be preaching and prophesying pretty much the exact same thing. Just look at Ezekiel, Isaiah, Hosea, Malachi, Amos, Nephi, Daniel, John the beloved. They all saw and preached the same things about the last days and they all taught and preached pretty much the same things as their contemporaries. Some of them provided additional details and emphasized certain things, but they never contradicted each other.

    Joseph Smith's revelations all square with the ancient prophets as well.

    That is the difference between past prophets and all those today who claim to be leading people to Christ today, but all differ in their understanding and interpretation of the scriptures.

    Also one of my points which you have not addressed is that all of these ancient prophets never prophesied of a time in the last days were there would be many prophets sent by the Lord at the same time. Joseph Smith never did either, at least to my knowledge.

    This is why I'm asking you to produce some scriptures that suggest many true prophets preaching in the last days. Like I said before I'm open to being wrong.

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  70. Ldsawakening,

    You said, "This is why I'm asking you to produce some scriptures that suggest many true prophets preaching in the last days. Like I said before I'm open to being wrong."

    Me too. I don't know that you are wrong. Maybe you are right.

    It seems that ruling out multiple prophets, back to back, or contemporaneous with each other is at least possible. But you take a hard line stance against that. That's what I took issue with.

    Just like you said you "must" first get a witness before baptism. The only scriptural argument I can think of in your favor is that we can't even have faith on our own since that is a gift. Or the 'idea' to be baptized comes from the Holy Spirit. But is that a "witness"? That's not my experience.

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  71. ldsawakening,

    We have been told that the Book of Mormon is essentially a prophetic text or a 'type' in its entirety, a prophecy of our day. We are to understand that what happens in it is a prophetic type of what we are going to experience.

    You have asked for a prophecy of prophets coming among us in this day. Consider Lehi, after he found his church to be in apostasy, a church practicing polygamy and pride in riches etc. (Jacob 2) and then we have Abinadi being called to another generation of apostate church which also was practicing polygamy and wicked leadership. Then we have the Samuel the Lamanite, and Alma and Nephi in the book of Heleman.

    Seems to me that it is a pattern we can count on. When a church goes into apostasy, prophets show up. We are there today.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sandra,

      Yes the Book of Mormon was written for our day. However I do not believe it is a type for our day, at least not in the way you appear to be saying. Some things perhaps are, but only indirectly. For example there will be destruction prior to the Lord's Second Coming and there was destruction prior to His appearance to the Nephites. In that regard we have a type, I suppose, but the details of the future destruction are very different and infinitely worse. Read Revelation and you'll get the idea.

      But you are right, we should liken all the scriptures unto us to see if there is a last days application. I would say the best way to know if something is a type for a future event is to compare the event to a last days prophecy to see if it is the same or similar.

      As for your comment that when the church goes into apostasy the Lord always calls a prophet, that is not completely correct. There was not a single prophet called from the time that the primitive church went into apostasy (by AD 200 at the latest) until 1830. That's 1600 years without a prophet. Then we have one for 14 years and haven't had one for almost 200 years.

      Basically we've had two prophets since the death of the ancient apostles and the inhalation of the Nephites.

      The pattern is on pretty thin ice these days.

      I actually would agree with your pattern though, if it wasn't for the many last days prophecies that say otherwise. They all point to just one prophet (and the 144K once the final gathering has commenced and the destruction of the wicked has also begun.)

      Delete
    2. Sandra,

      I really do not want to offend you. Tell me this though, how can you know for certain that the being who spoke to you face to face was in fact Christ?

      The scriptures warn of false Christs in the last days. In your opinion how can someone be able to tell for certain if they are in the presence of the Lord and Savior Himself or a false Christ?

      The scriptures say that God can not lie, that He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. The Lord stated in D&C 1

      38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

      What He has spoke He has spoken. His word in the scriptures will all be fulfilled. Is not this the standard by which we should judge a vision or visitation? God can not lie or He would cease to be God. If what you are being told by the Being how has appeared to you or through the spirit which is teaching you contradicts the word of God in the scriptures, then how can it be from the true and living God?

      I have shared a number of scriptures with you that state that there will be a last days King of Israel under the name of David, separate from Christ. I have shared with you D&C 77 where the Lord Himself told Joseph Smith that there would be a last days Elias coming to prepare the way for His return. Yet you call into question the word of God in order to reconcile your experiences. Don't you see a possible pitfall here?

      No I have not stood in the presence of Christ or had my calling and election made sure. I have not had angels appear unto me. I'm just an ordinary man who is trying to follow Christ. I have been searching His word in the scriptures in order to know what to do about the apostasy of the LDS church and what to expect next.

      I'm am waiting for the promised messenger to come and prepare the way for the Lord's Second Coming in glory. I am also waiting for the tribulation and destruction that proceeds His coming in glory to happen any day now.

      The fulfillment of the ancient prophecies is at the doors. Look at Daniel 7:5

      The bear rolling over with three ribs in its mouth is Russia. The three ribs are the Baltic states of Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia. At this very moment Russia is preparing to invade and conquer these three states. There is nothing Nato or the US can do to stop it.

      The Bear (Russia) will make up part of the great beast that subjects the entire world and is headed by the anti Christ. During that time all those who have not being gathered out by the angels will have to endure the reign of the anti Christ. Many Christians will perish, because they refuse to deny Christ by taking upon themselves the mark of the beast and are put to death because of it.

      What does Denver or the being and spirit that are teaching you have to say about the very clear prophecies in Daniel, Revelation, etc about the last days prior to Christ's Second Coming?

      Delete

    3. ldsawakening,

      You stated: What does Denver or the being and spirit that are teaching you have to say about the very clear prophecies in Daniel, Revelation, etc about the last days prior to Christ's Second Coming?

      I notice the non-capitalization of 'being' and 'spirit'... not cool and very dismissive.

      Give me specific references that you want to discuss. There are parts addressed just to the gentiles and then there are parts addressed specifically to Daniel and his people and then there are parts addressing end times or the 70th week.

      If you want to discuss this period that is also found or referenced in the Book of Revelation, let me know.

      Delete
    4. Here is another pronouncement of Jesus ruling on David's throne. “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.” (Luke 1:26-33 NKJV)

      Delete
    5. Sandra,

      I apologize for being submissive. I did not intentionally write the words being and spirit in lower case. I just wasn't paying attention. I probably shouldn't have capitalized them earlier. I actually think it's kind of silly that we all feel the need to capitalize the words Him, He, Spirit, Being, etc when referring to deity when the scriptures do not do this. I try to do it too, becuase I know people take offense if they aren't capitalized.

      Anyway sorry again if I offended you, that was not my intent.

      I think it's best if we just end our little back and forth for the time being. I agree with you that it has become cyclical and unproductive.

      All the best on your faith journey.

      Delete
  72. I'm a nobody and I'm no scriptorian. I don't even argue very well. Not good at debating at all. But I don't wish to argue or dispute. I would like to say a few things though. How do we avoid deception absolutely?

    "The truth of God's message is not proved in any other way (see Lectures on Faith 6, the sacrifice of all earthly things). The only way to distinguish between what is of God and what is not is through your sacrifice. Anyone can be mislead, until the course of their life conforms to God's will. When sacrifice is made, then the vessel can be made clean. When the vessel is clean before God, pretenders coming as angels of light cannot mislead. False spirits offer darkness.
    All gifts can be compromised. To avoid deception we must have light. Light comes to us by keeping His commandments. Spiritual gifts can be the means used to mislead us, because gifts can be used against us by our adversary. Mormon 9: 27-28 explains this:"O then despise not, and wonder not, but hearken unto the words of the Lord, and ask the Father in the name of Jesus for what things soever ye shall stand in need. Doubt not, but be believing, and begin as in times of old, and come unto the Lord with all your heart, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before him.
    Be wise in the days of your probation; strip yourselves of all uncleanness; ask not, that ye may consume it on your lusts, but ask with a firmness unshaken, that ye will yield to no temptation, but that ye will serve the true and living God." Be wise in the days of your probation. Strip yourselves of all uncleanness. Check your thoughts. Focus them in light, truth and knowledge. In the end, the only thing that matters is if Christ will vouch for us on the day of judgment." (Preserving the Restoration, pg 75-76, Denver C Snuffer; parenthesis added)
    Now do you believe these words speak of truth or are they lies? What does the Holy Ghost tell you? Whether you believe Denver is a prophet of God, a true messenger, the Davidic servant or not I think may be irrelevant all around. What is God saying to you individually and how do you know for certain that the messages you have received come from Him? We must constantly be testing the message & messenger(s). And offer the sacrifice that God requires to be able to discern.

    Numbers 11:29 "And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD’s people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!"

    If God is the same yesterday, today, & always wouldn't it stand to reason He would send many prophets in the last days to preach His word as in days of old and would we necessarily know about all of them? Should we all be prophets and know the Lord?

    If your mind is set to prove wrong what has been written on this blog no amount of scripture quoting will convince you otherwise.


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  73. I don't know what to believe any more. Maybe God has abandoned this Earth. I mean, according to Genesis, He once regretted even creating mankind and flooded the Earth to get rid of us all. After giving all the knowledge to Joseph Smith and his contemporaries, then watching it all be screwed up, I would not be surprised if God simply gave up on this world and moved on to another one with some potential. Has God forsaken us all? I'm ready to give up.

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    Replies
    1. Hopeless,

      No God has not forsaken us. The world has forsaken Him. He will gather His elect very soon and redeem the righteous. Things are going to get pretty crazy very soon.

      According to the scriptures the righteous will be tried like never before when the church is destroyed under the reign of the Anti Christ, but if we stay true to the testimony of Jesus we will be alright. Big things are coming soon.

      Any time now the prophesies in Revelation, Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and modern revelation will all be fulfilled. The great and marvellous work were the gospel will be restored in its purity for the very last time through the Davidic Servant is almost here. No one knows the day, but the signs all point to it being at the doors. It's pretty scary, but also very exciting.

      Soon all the world will know that Jesus is the Christ. The humbe followers of Christ will be saved and dwell in peace for a thousand years and the wicked will all be destroyed.

      Delete
  74. hopeless,

    Don't give up. The Lord is very much working among the people. I think concentrating on the Lord, His love, and the commandment to love one another is a good place to start. When I feel down or burdened I start counting my blessings.

    Think about prayers that have been answered in your life. The Lord knows you personally and is aware of your needs. Jesus taught we were to seek, ask, knock. He also taught that those who hunger and thirst after righteousness would be filled. I think Paula's post above would help.

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  75. ldsawakening,

    I appreciate that you are a true seeker of truth and are willing to go where that takes you. That is refreshing. Since you seem to know much about the Davidic Servant through the scriptures, what do you think of 3 Nephi 20:23?

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    1. Meg,

      My understanding of 3 Nephi 20:23 is that it is a prophecy that has multiple fulfillments. I believe that the ultimate fulfillment of that passage that the Lord is quoting from the Old Testament will be through the Davidic Servant.

      The prophet Nephi also interpreted that prophecy to mean Christ, which is correct. It is talking about Christ. However, a careful reading of it makes it clear that it is ultimately referring to someone else.

      Look at this same reference from the Acts 3

      19 ¶Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

      20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

      21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

      22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

      Peter is applying this same scripture in conjunction with the restitution of all things. Which from D&C 77 (see comment above) will be accomplished through Elias. Who the Lord identifies as John.

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    2. Meg continued...

      Most (if not all of the ancient prophecies have dual fulfillments). Look at Malachi 3

      1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

      2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:

      3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.

      4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

      5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the Lord of hosts.

      This is clearly a prophecy about the Lord's Second Coming. It can't be a literal prophecy of His earthly ministry because the details don't quite fit. He didn't come suddenly to His Temple and He didn't purify the sons of Levi and purge them as gold and silver that they might offer again unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. (John the Baptist told Joseph and Oliver that this was a future event when he restored the aaronic priesthood).

      Even though it is a last days prophecy there was still an application in Christ's day. The Lord's messenger preparing the way before him in verse one is also a prophecy of John the Baptist during the Meridian of time. During His mortal ministry the Lord also did many of the things mentioned in verse 5.

      The Jews were expecting the literal fulfillment of this prophecy (and many others) during the Meridian of time. This is why they didn't recognize the Lord when He came among them only fulfilling it indirectly (and of course providing the atonement which is of the greatest event in human history).

      I admit that it is possible for the David mentioned in Ezekiel and Hosea to be Christ and the Lord in those passages being God the Father. However we know that Christ has now ascended to the level of His Father and is literally our God. It wouldn't make sense (at least to me) that he is referring to Himself as a servant in the Lord's hands at this point.

      Also the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith indicate that Christ will be the one dwelling on the earth during the millennium and not God the Father.

      We also know that there will be both terrestrial and celestial people living on the earth at that time. Terrestrial people cannot dwell in the presence of the Father. They can only dwell in the presence of the Son. (yes people can be temporarily transfigured and see the Father, but this is very rare and not a permanent thing for a thousand years)

      Then there's still the matter of D&C 77, the prophecy in Malachi 3, the teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith (pg 339), and dozens of other scriptures that speak of a last days messenger who will prepare the way for the Lord's second coming, restore all things, establish Zion, gather Israel,etc.

      If you or anyone else has an interpretation of D&C 77 and Malachi 3 than the one I have provided fire away. I'm always searching for truth. I don't claim to have it all figured out, quite the opposite. Sandra rejected D&C 77 because she couldn't reconcile it with her views. What about you or Underdog or even Adrian. Anyone else have a different interpretation that can show me where I am wrong?

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    3. Oh it is so interesting. 3rd Nephi 20 literally states that Jesus is the prophet like unto Moses. Reading both chapters 20 and 21 gives such a clear picture. Only the Holy Ghost can give this to someone, so I hope those reading do so with the Holy Ghost.

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    4. ldsawakening,

      Read the Malachi passage with the understanding given in 3 Nephi 20-21. The messenger is Christ sent by the Father.

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    5. In 3rd Nephi 21, there are three entities spoken of. The Father, Jesus Christ/servant and a man. The man is not the one marred. When the pronoun 'he' is used, the discerning Spirit is necessary to know to which of these three it is referring. Now, when all of the scriptures in these chapters are referring to Jesus Christ, I would think it obvious it isn't referring to 'a man'. Verse 11 is key.

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    6. Sandra,

      You keep dodging my questions and by doing so are painting yourself into a corner, similar to the guy pictured in Adrian's post.

      I think if it wasn't for the many other last days prophecies we have that your interpretation of the servant being Christ and the Lord being God the Father would hold more water.

      We can look solely at 3 verses in 3 Nephi 21 to refute what you are saying.

      9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.

      10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

      11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

      It is the Lord Jesus Christ speaking in all of these verses and no one else. In verse 9 He says that the the Father shall commence to do a work, but that people won't believe it though a MAN shall declare it to them.

      How is that MAN. It can not be Christ or the Father, nor can it be the Holy Ghost. It is someone else.

      In the next verse Christ identifies this MAN as HIS (Christ's) servant. He says that HIS servant shall be marred, but that He will heal him. There is no way that the servant is Christ Himself. First off Christ refers to him as HIS (Christ's) servant. Secondly Christ says he will be marred, but that He (Christ) shall heal him.

      If this prophecy were given in the Old Testament then we could say that it could (and likely would) be referring to Christ's mortal ministry. However this is Christ Himself prophesying of the last days after he had already been resurrected.
      Not only that, but we know that the Savior was not marred, He was killed. Also the Father did not heal Him. Christ laid His life down willingly and took it back up Himself. No one could take His life, He had to lay it down. It's a moot point anyway, because this is a last days prophecy only.

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    7. Sandra continued...

      I'm still waiting on your interpretation of who the Elias from D&C 77 is. Also how can Christ be the servant preparing the way for the Father in Malachi 3? It is Christ who is coming again, not the Father. I don't need to quote any scriptures on that do I?

      Furthermore you didn't comment on how the terrestrial people living during the millenium will be able to abide the Father's presence if He is in fact the Lord who lives among His people (from Ezekiel 34, 37, and Hosea 3), and Christ is King David. How is that suppose to work?

      Here's another scripture that CLEARLY speaks of a last days messenger preparing the way before His second coming. It's in D&C 113. Here the Lord is answering a question about some verses in Isaiah (which by the way the Lord commanded us to search diligently and Nephi promised that in the last days there would be those who would understand Isaiah)

      1 Who is the Stem of Jesse spoken of in the 1st, 2d, 3d, 4th, and 5th verses of the 11th chapter of Isaiah?

      2 Verily thus saith the Lord: It is Christ.

      3 What is the rod spoken of in the first verse of the 11th chapter of Isaiah, that should come of the Stem of Jesse?

      4 Behold, thus saith the Lord: It is a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power.

      5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?

      6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.

      Is this not speaking of the Davidic Servant or Elias? If not who is it talking about?

      If anyone else out there would care to venture a different interpretation besides Sandra please don't be shy. If I'm wrong please show me so I can understand it correctly.

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    8. You keep dodging my questions and by doing so are painting yourself into a corner, similar to the guy pictured in Adrian's post.

      ldsawakening,

      You stated: I think if it wasn't for the many other last days prophecies we have that your interpretation of the servant being Christ and the Lord being God the Father would hold more water.

      Read Jeremiah 23:5-8

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    9. Elias already came according to Jesus. He didn't restore anything. He only prepared the way by calling people to repentance. Was he considered a prophet? Did he prophesy other than to say that one greater than he would come and baptize with fire?

      John 1: 26 And they asked him, and said unto him; Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not the Christ, nor Elias who was to restore all things, neither that prophet?

      27 John answered them, saying; I baptize with water, but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

      28 He it is of whom I bear record. He is that prophet, even Elias, who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose, or whose place I am not able to fill; for he shall baptize, not only with water, but with fire, and with the Holy Ghost.

      Interestingly here in the JST of John 1 we have John stating he isn't the Elias who will restore all things. He points to Christ as the Elias.

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    10. Sandra,

      Sorry I didn't see you had responded to who Elias is until just now. Not sure if Adrian had forgotten to post it or If I just missed it.

      Jeremiah 23:5-8 is interesting and if we look at only that scripture as it stands in the KJV then it does sound like the Branch in verse 5 is Christ.

      However if we look at other scriptures such as Isaiah 11 we see that this is doesn't appear to be the case.

      Isaiah 11

      1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

      2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;

      3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

      4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

      5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

      The stem of Jessie is Christ but the Branch (capitalized in both Isaiah and Jeremiah) is someone else. At least the way I understand it.

      Isaiah 11 verse 2 is clearly describing the calling of this man (The Branch) as a prophet. The spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of knowledge and understanding, the fear of the Lord, etc. The Savior Himself would not to have these things given to Him, he already possesses them.

      Both Isaiah 11 and Jeremiah 23 associate the word Righteousness with the Branch. This is getting into some pretty heavy and deep mysteries, but the term Righteousness in the scriptures is often a metaphor or title for the one mighty and strong. Jeremiah 23:6 as it stands in the KJV is actually not a perfect translation. A better rendition from the ancient texts would be something like "and the name the Lord will call him is Our Righteousness". Again this is getting very deep, too deep for the comment section of a blog.

      As far as Elias goes you are correct that John the baptist was Elias. Elias is a title for someone who is preparing the way for another. John the baptist was absolutely the Elias who prepared the way for Christ's mortal ministry.

      JST John 1:28 is interesting. I had noticed before that John the baptist referred to Christ as Elias. I'm not sure what to make of that. I wonder if it has something to do with the power of Elijah (Elias being the New Testament version of Elijah). John the Baptist only had power to preach repentance and baptize, not to confer the Holy Ghost or other higher things.

      If Christ is the last days Elias then he would have to be preparing the way for the Father to reign on the Earth. I don't believe the scriptures support that.

      I still believe the scriptures clearly point to someone else being the Elias to prepare the way for Christ's second coming in glory. I believe that the interpretations the Lord gave Joseph Smith in D&C 77 and D&C 113 are correct. John the beloved will be the one to gather Israel and is the last days Elias.

      At least that's my take on it. Thank you for sharing your interpretation.

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  76. Good one Meg. In reading John 10, it is easy to understand that it is the Father who is calling the Davic servant and that servant is Jesus Christ into whose hands the Father and put all things.

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  77. Hi all,

    I had troubles with electronic devices over the weekend so I could not post anything but I wanted to.

    First of all I want to apologize to Sandra and Underdog if I've said anything that has offended them. It is not my intention to offend anyone, and though you may believe my visions and experiences with the Lord is from the adversary, all I can say is that nothing but Jesus Christ matters to me (and our heavenly parents). The Word of God is the most important writings and they are deep and filled with mysteries. Jonathan Cahan reveals these deep mysteries in the Old Testament. Joseph Smith stated that we are to receive truth wherever truth is and therefore I do not limit my readings to just LDS circles. In fact, some of the most important books that have enlightened me on scripture comes from outside the LDS circles. God is not respecter of persons ... and this is one reason I have concerns with the remnant movement that is going on. I was a personal friend of Denver's ... we visited at each others homes, and he taught me personally and in small groups. Denver is a good man and a messenger which was absolutely necessary for us to get out of the box. However, there are so many things that he teaches now that is contrary to what he taught in the beginning and he always made mention that to teach something that wasn't from God was a sin. So why the flip-flop. Progression? or was he thinking he received instruction when in reality it wasn't? He has flip-flopped on polygamy - he absolutely believed Joseph practiced polygamy ... he stated that to a group of us ... he used to believe in multiple mortalities upon this earth - you keep coming back to fulfill your mission, and overlapping lifetimes, Adam and Eve being God the Father and God the Mother and more ... but he has switched on every one of them. The most important scripture for me is found in Psalms - it is better to trust in God than in man.

    One of the most amazing books, or two I should say, was by an LDS author by the name of Brinkerhoff ... he writes on the Davidic Servant ... called Awake and Arise and then another one called 7 Heavenly Witnesses. I read them before I had my own experience and I had more confirmations of truth in those books than most.

    There are just too many people outside the LDS religion that are experiencing God ... the LDS religion adds insight but it is the bible that is the foundation of all things. Joseph had amazing revelations and most of them I believe are from God. But to put men on a pedestal and not pray about everything is not wise.

    I resonsate with LDSawakening and I believe he is spot on regarding rebaptism. If we plow ahead on everything without confirmation of the Spirit we are in trouble. Are we not taught that we should pray always ... and have the Spirit as our guide and not lean to our own understanding?

    Jesus is no Servant when he comes back .. He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings ... but he does have a servant to prepare the way who comes from the East ... he is not from our religion. In fact we have to get out of religion and get into relationship with God ... We can't keep God in a box and therefore we have to climb out of boxes. There are too many people who are members of the Church of the Firstborn who never have heard of LDS people ... but unless you are willing believe truth wherever truth is you will stay in a small box and not see the wonders and magnificence and majesty and glory of God. Jesus should be the center of everything ... not Denver, not Joseph, not the restoration. And if you all think I am deceived by saying that then so be it.

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  78. ldsawakening,

    You asked:


    I really do not want to offend you. Tell me this though, how can you know for certain that the being who spoke to you face to face was in fact Christ?

    The scriptures warn of false Christs in the last days. In your opinion how can someone be able to tell for certain if they are in the presence of the Lord and Savior Himself or a false Christ?

    When standing in the presence of Christ or just even conversing with Him and not seeing Him, you know it is Him because His Spirit envelopes you entirely and you know His identity. I can't explain it any better than that.

    I had the same experience with Satan. BUT his spirit was spiky, not peaceful and filled with love. I don't think spiky really relates the meaning or feeling. But I can assure you I know the difference between Jesus Christ and evil spirits pretending. Some evil spirits just leave a void... Jesus Christ and good spirits energize and enlarge your mind and heart and the feeling just doesn't leave you ever.

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    Replies
    1. Sandra,

      Thanks for the explanation. I see the logic in what you're saying. I have to say that it could also be two different false spirits as well. Of course you're the one who experienced these things not me. Each of us are responsible for our own salvation and have to follow what we believe is right.

      You have to do what you have to do. If you really think that you're rebaptism has put you on a higher spiritual plain than me and that the Lord Himself is teaching you, please answer my questions about D&C 77 and D&C 113. Or what about my question about whether it is the Father or the Son who is coming in glory to reign upon the earth. If you are truly on the path of enlightment and full of the Holy Ghost, then you should be able to easily explain these scriptures.

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    2. ldsawakening,

      You have to do what you have to do. If you really think that you're rebaptism has put you on a higher spiritual plain than me and that the Lord Himself is teaching you, please answer my questions about D&C 77 and D&C 113. Or what about my question about whether it is the Father or the Son who is coming in glory to reign upon the earth. If you are truly on the path of enlightment and full of the Holy Ghost, then you should be able to easily explain these scriptures.

      Seriously? You have pretty much dismissed my past post or my experience. Now you expect me to give you all that I have 'earned' through obedience to you without another thought. Consider the parable of the 10 virgins. The slothful or unwise virgins asked the wise virgins for some of their oil. The answer was NO.

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    3. Sandra,

      I'm sorry if I offended you. That was not my intent. I have tendency to get a little fired up, especially when it comes to the word of God contained in the scriptures. I take these things very seriously.

      I wasn't trying to dismiss your spiritual experiences. Quite the opposite. I believe what you experienced is very real. What I'm trying to do is try every spirit and every professed vision or revelation to see if it is of God or not. The only way I know how to do it is by comparing what that spirit is saying to the word of God in the scriptures. Since you claim to be led by the Holy Ghost it is my responsibility to test the doctrines you teach against the scriptures. How else can I know if you are truly being led by the Holy Spirit or are deceived?

      I wasn't trying to get you to share any deep truths that you feel you have "earned" and shouldn't share.

      I'm not really sure what you could possibly know about D&C 77 and D&C 113 that is so deep or sacred to be not be able to share it. Same goes for whether or not it is God the Father who will be living on Earth during the millennium or His Son Jesus Christ.

      Just so you know I have "earned' all of the gospel and scriptural knowledge I possess as well. Since waking up over a year ago I have spent like 20 hours a week feverishly searching the scriptures and the words of those who claim to possess the truth (such as Denver Snuffer). I have repented of my sins and false traditions to the best of my ability. I'm still far from perfect, but I've come a long way. I have fasted and prayed much to know God's will and to find the truth.

      Referring to me as a foolish virgin is unfounded. By the way you are interpreting that parable incorrectly. You are using it in the same way the church does, which is not correct. A virgin represents a righteous and worthy person. All of the 10 virgins are righteous enough to be abide the day of burning, however something separates the wise from the foolish. It is oil. The wise virgins tell the foolish to go and buy some more oil when the cry of the wedding party is heard. There are telling them to go and purchase something temporal, not spiritual. The oil is not righteousness or knowledge, (you can't buy either of those) it represents temporal preparation (such as food storage and other necessities) for the day of vengeance and burning that is about to befall the earth.

      It's been fun talking to you and I wish you all the best.

      I totally get that you aren't comfortable discussing those passages. It's a lot to take in.

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  79. Underdog, you may find the following interesting since it came from Denver himself.

    "We had a bunch of enthusiasm when the missionary success in Kirtland took place and we brought on board this enormous aneurysm of converts. It's like a skinny snake swallowing a huge pig. There's this gosh awful lump there. That was the Kirtland experience with the conversion of the Campbellites, Sidney Rigdon and Parley Pratt. They came on board and they distorted what happened thereafter in the restoration. Long before meeting Mormon missionaries their goal was to have a New Testament church. That is what they demanded from Joseph Smith after they began to follow him, despite Joseph’s encouragement to look for something else. And that is what they got through Joseph Smith. This is one of the reasons Ezekiel 14 was a subject or topic or lessons he taught early and he taught again late when talking to the Saints. He warned them about how they get through the Prophet, what they want and deserve. It's not necessarily what God wants. For example, you can see in section 107 two tracks, and they are very evident. One track is trying to figure out church government, and you get that revealed in Section 107. But the other track talks about the very beginning. It talks about Adam-ondi-Ahman. It talks about a dispensation at the beginning, where all of this started. You can see that the church, the converts, the people who wanted a church government got what they were asking for. You can see God pleading for another topic, another subject, and another return to something much more ancient. We are going to spend some time this year trying to get us there."

    And then Denver claimed the keys were wrested from the church because of his excommunication, or rather, because the first presidency backed it.

    Let's do some logic here -if Joseph was not supposed to start a New Testament church, which Denver himself makes reference to, then whey would there be any need for wresting the keys from a church that really had not authority anyway. You see David Whitmer explains all of this in his Address to All Believers ... Joseph's gift was translation .. but he was not supposed to organize a church. So why are all of wanting to preserve the restoration of a church that was never supposed to be?

    If you cannot be bothered to read David Whitmer, then you will not have an understanding of some very basic things. David Whitmer never denied the Book of Mormon and he loved Joseph Smith. He did not sell his property for any other reason but for the fact that he saw that Rigdon had too much influence over Joseph, just like Denver said, and that Joseph did participate in polygamy which Denver used to teach adamantly that Joseph participated ... but now doesn't. If you would take the time and read and pray about David Whitmer's address, you may find so many enlightening answers.

    God forbid that I would ever fight against His truth.

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    Replies
    1. Anonymous,

      I find it interesting that you would take David Whitmer's word for Joseph being a polygamist, but not take the prophet's word for it that he wasn't.

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    2. Anonymous,

      Thanks for sharing that Denver quote about the snake eating the pig.

      You said, “And then Denver claimed the keys were wrested from the church because of his excommunication, or rather, because the first presidency backed it.”

      To clarify, Denver did officially say on May 2, 2014: “Last general conference, the entire First Presidency, the 12, the 70, and all other general authorities and auxiliaries, voted to sustain those who abused their authority in casting me out of the church. At that moment, the Lord ended all claims of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to claim it is led by the priesthood.”

      It’s interesting that Denver did not capitalize “The Church…” It’s also noteworthy that he specifically clarified who lost their priesthood. He said it was “the leaders who exercised control, compulsion and dominion, and not the powerless who had no part in the affair.” (See footnote 21 on page 316 of the ten talks which you can download at his website).

      In other words, he singled out the top LDS hierarchy.

      Another clarification you may want to consider is that “keys” are not “authority”. This was discussed above in some comments. True, many people in the LDS Church commonly equate keys with authority, but perhaps it’s better understood as “knowledge.”

      Getting to the meat of your comment, you said, “Let's do some logic here -if Joseph was not supposed to start a New Testament church, which Denver himself makes reference to, then why would there be any need for wresting the keys from a church that really had not authority anyway.”

      The authority was restored by John the Baptist. There was never supposed to be an organized corporate church institution. The huge pig of the NT Church that was swallowed by the skinny snake (Zion trying to launch) ended up making the snake ill. Consequently, LDS (esp the last 15 years) have been getting a very unhealthy dose of precepts of men mingled with scripture. We have all been affected and infected with much false tradition, but we can still express appreciation for the church which has been the delivery system of the gospel in the form of the BoM.

      One quick, relevant point: One of the most startling concepts in Scriptures is the DELIVERANCE PRINCIPLE (1 Nephi 14:7) which is based on our freedom to choose. We are DELIVERED to the hardness of our hearts and blindness of our minds. God will actually “SEND [us] strong delusion, that [we] should believe a lie: that [we] all might be damned who believed not the truth…”

      See 2 Thes 2 for the full context of the prophecy:

      8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
      9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
      10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
      11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
      12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

      1 Samuel 8 comes to mind too in reference to what the swallowed pig wanted. Joseph Smith probably got this VERY revelation that Samuel got when the people demanded a king in Samuel’s day, and demanded a New Testament Church in Joseph’s day: “Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.” I imagine Joseph warned the people, “Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel (Joseph); and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us (a NT Church)”.

      You ask, “So why are all of [us? – you omitted a word here] wanting to preserve the restoration of a church that was never supposed to be?
      The DC 10:67-68 and 1 Nephi 14:10 “church” is supposed to be here. That is what we seek to preserve.

      I will plan to look up David Whitmer’s talk. Thank you. Got a link?

      Delete
  80. Anonymous,

    I would just say this about Denver changing his opinion on Joseph Smith's polygamy or on any other matter. We learn by seeking and asking and knocking. The Lord gives us here a little and there a little. We keep growing and improving our perspective.

    You would have to look at yourself perhaps on how you have come to where you are now. Did you come there all of a sudden in one day or was it a process.

    Did Joseph come to understand everything in a day? Did he grow a little at a time.

    You are expecting super human outcomes just because of what the Lord has used him for.

    Even Jesus learn obedience by what He suffered. He grew from grace to grace. I honestly don't get your harsh criticism of anyone here. You seem to think you are on the high road and everyone else is on the downward spiral.

    The indoctrination by the lds entity is no small thing to over come.

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  81. Anonymous,

    You: “First of all I want to apologize to Sandra and Underdog if I've said anything that has offended them.”

    No offense. Same apology to you if you’re offended. I think we’re all good.

    “Joseph Smith stated that we are to receive truth wherever truth is and therefore I do not limit my readings to just LDS circles.”

    Totally agree!

    “Denver is a good man and a messenger which was absolutely necessary for us to get out of the box.”
    Agreed! He got me out of the box, for sure.

    “So why the flip-flop” you ask?

    First of all, if someone (like Denver) is fallible (and therefore growing in knowledge) how is flip flopping bad, esp years ago? On the contrary, wouldn’t you WANT to flip flop, or in other words, change positions as your knowledge increases and as you discard false interpretations or false conclusion or false traditions? If you believe he’s infallible, then I’d agree with your point, but he’s not. He teaches that he’s a man who can err and does err. He says to look to God, not him.

    So you mention that you and Denver WERE friends and you frequently visited each other’s homes and he taught you personally as well as in groups. That is very cool, I have to admit. But let me ask you… Has he revoked his friendship to you? Why aren’t you friends now, may I ask? Why say you WERE friends. I guess you had a falling out?

    On Denver’s changing views like progression, polygamy, multiple mortalities, overlapping lifetimes, etc. (I assume you’re not misrepresenting these, because I’ve read none of these in his writings), if he did change his views/opinions, then maybe he went from error to truth, or maybe he’s still figuring it out. After all, there is so much disinformation on polygamy that MOST LDS think it’s legit. Those other topics are DEEP stuff, can you really blame somebody for changing opinions on such topics? He hasn’t “canonized” those topics, so much were simple his opinion at the time. We know he consciously OMITTED those deeper topics from his 10 talks.

    May I suggest something? I would focus your critical scrutiny on his 10 talks. Do you see error in ANY of his 10 talks? The content was authorized by Christ, he testifies. So I ask, what error do you find in his actual “authorized message”?

    I agree with you when you say, “The most important scripture for me is found in Psalms - it is better to trust in God than in man.”

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  82. To Anonymous (continued), with response to Ldsawakening too...

    “There are just too many people outside the LDS religion that are experiencing God ... the LDS religion adds insight but it is the bible that is the foundation of all things. Joseph had amazing revelations and most of them I believe are from God. But to put men on a pedestal and not pray about everything is not wise.”

    Agreed. That’s true. I have found that Denver says the SAME thing you’re saying.

    Anonymous said: “I resonate with LDSawakening and I believe he is spot on regarding rebaptism. If we plow ahead on everything without confirmation of the Spirit we are in trouble. Are we not taught that we should pray always ... and have the Spirit as our guide and not lean to our own understanding?”

    Agreed, but for people brand new to understanding things of “the Spirit”, like I was as a convert many years ago, and this is true for EVERYBODY at the beginning of seeking God in their personal lives, we must ALL walk by faith initially and throughout our lives, using our reason and praying to understand “the Spirit”.
    Ldsawakening was saying you MUST receive a witness before you get baptized, but faith is things hoped for and not seen. You receive no [spiritual] witness until AFTER the trial of your faith. So I disagreed (above) with the important word “must.” Ldsawakening also was saying that if Denver wasn’t the Davidic servant then he MUST be false. I don’t know why it’s either / or. Maybe he/she’s right, but I am not convinced Denver MUST be the servant of David (and I do think the 3 Nephi 21 reference, assuming that’s the Davidic servant in verses 9-11, is referring to a man and that man is not Christ). I don’t feel the need to “wait” on anybody but Christ per se. I do feel inspired to seek Heavenly Father to know Him and His mysteries for myself. Denver and Joseph have inspired me to try harder to know God. I (italicized if I could) am their fruit, or the fruit of employing their message .

    If as you say, the servant “is not from our religion,” that most definitely will not surprise me. Denver has helped the LDS get out of the box on that possibility, hasn’t he? Abinadi could be a “type” for Denver, and Samuel the Lamanite a type for another prophet “outside our religion” as you say. The two prophets to be slain and resurrected I’m assuming will likely be Jewish prophets, who will testify of Christ. So ldsawakening, THERE, I’ve just provided evidence of MULTIPLE prophets. You asked me above, “This is why I'm asking you to produce some scriptures that suggest many true prophets preaching in the last days.” Those TWO (Isa 51 and Rev 11) shall prophesy.

    Anonymous, you’re saying we must be “willing [to] believe truth wherever truth is” and not “stay in a small box and not see the wonders and magnificence and majesty and glory of God.”

    Agreed! “Jesus should be the center of everything,” as you say, and “not Denver, not Joseph, not the restoration.”
    You: “And if you all think I am deceived by saying that then so be it.” Is anybody here disagreeing with you on this last point you make? I don’t think so. We are agreed.

    Ldsawakening, you said, “I was not aware that Denver had read Ezekiel 34 from beginning to end without commentary and that he claims the Lord commanded him to do that. I wonder what the purpose to that was.”

    In that case, I assume you’ve not read or listened to Denver’s 10 talks then, is that correct? In his 6th talk on Zion, he quoted Ezek 33:25-34:31 by introducing it as follows: “Now I need to read you something. This is Ezekiel 33:25-34:31:” Then he read it verbatim. After directly quoting those verses he said, “I was required to read that, but I am not required, and will not comment. You wouldn‟t want to hear my comments anyway. But you should apply these verses to us today.” Since you and he have both been inspired to study that chapter, I think you’ll find his remarks in his 6th talk very interesting, needless to say.

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  83. Underdog,

    I have read and listened to a few of Denver's Lectures, but not the 6th one. Maybe I'll check it out sometime, we'll see. I wasn't impressed with the lectures I've checked out so far.

    Speaking of the lectures. There is another problem with Denver's story. He claims Christ personally visited him to tell him what to talk about in the lectures, but he has since back peddled off of some of the things he says in them, including Joseph having practiced polygamy.

    Obviously there is no way that Denver is the Davidic Servant. He doesn't fit the profile. Does that automatically make him a false prophet? No, it doesn't. It is possible that the Lord could call a servant or servants to warn the people before the Davidic Servant is sent, though the scriptures seem to refute this idea. Like I said before if ALL Denver did was point to Christ and tell people to repent for what is to come, then I would say he could be legit.

    However this is not what he is doing. He teaches lots of other things besides Christ. He often gets things wrong in the process. When he first started preaching on his blog and in his books he taught that having a personal visitation by Christ making ones calling and election sure was required to be exalted. Not only is this false doctrine, he has recently back peddled off of that. He claims this the purpose for the Temple that is to be built. It is being built for those who are unable or unwilling to do what it takes to gain a personal audience with Christ.

    There are many things that are off with him, but the Temple thing is probably the biggest. There is no purpose to building it. A temple in Idaho or anywhere besides old Jerusalem or the New Jerusalem in Jackson County is not in the last days picture.

    I know Denver's message has been very well received by many who see the LDS church's apostasy. However something is off, many things actually. He can't be what he claims, which in my mind makes him a false prophet.

    You're reaching for straws with those two scriptures about the two last days prophets who will be sent to preach to the Jews in old Jerusalem, will die, and then rise after 3 days. They won't be Denver and the Davidic Servant. I'm thinking that they will be members of the 144k, could be wrong.

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    1. I'm going to say one last thing on this blog because the circles are getting more and more non productive. Where 1 or 2 are gathered in my name, there I will be also. Are we gathered in His name? Also, if ye have not the Spirit, ye shall not teach. Both parties must have the Spirit and I don't think that is happening here.

      Hope y'all have a good night and take care.

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  84. Underdog thanks so much for your clarification ... and Sandra too. It is insightful and many of the things you stated were enlightening to me (in a good way). Thank you.

    We are all struggling here in this darkened world to make sense of things and we only have a small picture but thank goodness for the scriptures. Even though they can be interpreted differently, they, along with the spirit, are our guide.

    Please know that my intentions truly are not to lose faith in Joseph or Denver. My intention is make aware that we need to trust in God. As you and Sandra expressed, we do change our beliefs depending upon our perceptions and experiences. That is exactly what I'm saying with Joseph ... he understood something for a while and then realized it was not a doctrine from God. William Marks would not lie as he was a friend of Josephs and once Brigham became President he booted William Marks out ... Brigham didn't like Marks because Marks didn't believe in polygamy. I think this is a very good lesson for all of us in that when we receive inspiration it is not always from God. Joseph stated, when he had a revelation regarding selling the BOM rights in Canada and it didn't work out, when he again asked God about the revelation, God said, some revelation comes from God, sometimes from your own self and sometimes from the adversary. Maybe God told Denver that Joseph never practiced it, but Denver says Joseph and Emma come to him, so could it not be that it is not Joseph appearing to Denver? Denver, to my knowledge has never said God told him that Joseph didn't practice polygamy.

    As for the "friend" thing ... Denver is a busy guy mentoring everyone. If you begin disagreeing or questioning Denver he cuts you off ... plain and simple. He has done the same thing to so many others but I am very thankful to him. He was a messenger ... and I think the Lord is still using him as a separator. He got us to the point of not worshipping leadership and understanding apostasy. But how many have just traded worship of leadership to worship of Denver? I've already stated my concerns above so I won't bore anyone with restating them.

    The link to the David Whitmer Address is
    http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/address1.htm

    Again thank you Underdog. You have given me some good information to ponder upon and take to the Lord.

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  85. Ldsawakening,

    It seems that you’re trying to stay grounded in the scriptures and trying to “prove all things” as Paul does exhort us. I commend you for that. But you say, “I have read and listened to a few of Denver's Lectures, but not the 6th one. Maybe I'll check it out sometime, we'll see. I wasn't impressed with the lectures I've checked out so far.”

    If you’ve not delved into what he’s saying, then you’re ignoring teachings which one person described as follows: “Save what was given through the Prophet and Seer Joseph Smith, what is offered in this book (the 10 talks) contains the most light and truth that has been presented in writing in almost 2,000 years” (Louis Naegle).

    Your approach is in contrast with how I approached the message of the Mormon missionaries many years ago as an adult. Not boasting in the least (just sharing), but I do think my yearning and searching fits the profile of those who find God. I voraciously read what the missionaries suggested. This was pre Internet, so aside from praying, I read books, with the vast majority of my time on the BoM, but also reading all their pamphlets and LeGrand Richards’ book, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder. The point being that I was really hungering and thirsting for righteousness and knowledge and it made perfect sense to me to heavily scrutinize Joseph’s fruit of the BoM and the D&C. So I read, and planted the seed as delivered through Joseph Smith.

    The result was sincere turning to God and ultimately the promised baptism of fire which I didn’t seek or know would happen beforehand, but knew at the time that I had an supernatural experience with God. I could not deny my experience came from God. It solidified my discipleship to Christ. Could I have been deceived by a counterfeit from Satan? I don’t think so, everything was in harmony with the Scriptures and things pointed to Jesus and my faith in Him grew exponentially. With Moroni 7:16 in mind, I think I’m safe. Let me put it this way: I have no doubts that Jesus is the Christ and Joseph Smith was true prophet.

    I served a mission. Loved it. Came home and this was when Pres Benson was alive but not speaking in conference anymore. From there things went downhill, so to speak, or more it may be more accurate to say that at best I had plateaued. I stopped seeking my calling and election, which was a doctrine that was fairly routinely talked about even in the early 90’s. In my Mormon circles, that topic has faded immensely since Benson faded out of mortal existence. Now it’s almost a heresy to be mentioned, a “mystery” that we are told not to seek, as is the Second Comforter, despite what the scriptures say on both topics.

    Now fast forward to recent times. We have a man (a modern Abinadi in Denver) who has awakened us to our awful situation of apostasy in the “living Church”. That’s a heartbreaking realization. The Matrix exposed! This Abinadi has “resurrected” or RESTORED these two significant doctrines, and what do we fine? That they are not in the least bit popular with many people. The devil works OT to discredit the very teaching of how to be saved.

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  86. Continued...

    One can apply this scripture to our day, “And he (Nehor) also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life.” (Alma 1:4). This idea has infiltrated the Church in my view in that our oral, if not written, tradition is “all is well in Zion” and our exaltation is assured if we partake of the essential ordinances and covenant in the temple and remain temple worthy. Isn’t that the gist of it? I believe that nails it. LDS Mormons hear this carnal or popular “doctrine” and “lift up their heads and rejoice.” Not to mention the rest of that chapter, like verse 3 where Nehor teaches priestcraft in that the General Authorities “ought not to labor with their hands, but that they ought to be supported by the people.”

    So NOW we have a man who teaches the scriptures for what they do actually say, including the Lectures on Faith, and his teaching is not well received at all. His teachings are very unpopular. As you say, “something is off” and you’re not “impressed with the lectures [you] have checked out so far.”

    I must confess, this teaching is not popular with me either. The math doesn’t look good, so to speak. But I have faith that God is perfectly just, that He is perfectly loving, that He is perfectly merciful, and that He most certainly must be skilled at His work and glory, which is saving His children. He MUST BE successful. He HAS TO be good at what He does, right?

    I may not understand everything, but do little children understand everything? And I believe the Spirit just revealed something precious to me which I give God credit for. Why does the doctrine of Christ require us to “become as little children”? I believe the Spirit just taught me that little children do not or may not understand something, but they still DO what is asked of them. We may not understand or agree with something, so we must walk by faith. The witness comes after our trial of faith. I’m walking by faith regarding this doctrine of salvation which admittedly isn’t popular.

    You said: “When he first started preaching on his blog and in his books he taught that having a personal visitation by Christ making ones calling and election sure was required to be exalted.”
    That is my sense too, but did he ever put that in writing? Anybody care to confirm this? I can’t think of Denver ever canonizing this, so to speak. Can you share an actual quote? I do agree he seems to indicate this, but does he actually state it somewhere?
    You said, "He (Denver) often gets things wrong in the process...However something is off, many things actually."

    Would you elaborate please? Since this is a thread about fairy tales v truth, I think it’s safe to say you have the floor to present your case against Denver. If he is teaching falsehoods, what specifically are they? Please expose the error found in his 10 talks.

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  87. Continued (part 3)

    "He can't be what he claims, which in my mind makes him a false prophet."

    What does he "claim" to be? I don’t understand. I don't see him claiming "to be" anybody. He has claimed to have experienced certain heavenly things and received the word of God. But not “to be” anything other than a messenger bringing further light and knowledge. He says about the topic, “There's plenty of nonsense going on about that, and I do not want to contribute yet more to the fire.” Denver says on page 293 of the 10 talks of the Davidic servant, “if this is a role to be occupied by a single individual, then no one can claim the role until after he has done the required work.” He concludes by challenging those who claim to be that servant, “But, if this person wants to step forth, then they need to hold the scepter of power in their hand. They need to have light for their covering. Their mouth needs to utter eternal words, and their bowels need to be a fountain of truth. These are the works to be done. So if someone wants to say, "I'm the guy," then go ahead and do these things. If you want to accomplish these things, once you have, then maybe this was a description of you.”

    I’m not sure what basis Anonymous alleges Denver encourages people to depend on him. Denver points to Christ, “When you submit to the rule of God, you then place yourself in a position where you must be dependent upon Him. Then every one of you will immediately realize your own weakness. You will be tempted to have others tell you how to please God. You must resist that temptation. You must arise and seek Him directly” (Page 339). THIS sounds like a true prophet to me. This is such a departure from the stream of priestcraft we are force fed in the Church.

    It seems like maybe Anonymous doesn’t like Denver's personality or style. Maybe he’s a jerk sometimes. I don’t know. I can tell you that he’s hanging out in a profession without a good PR image, but didn’t Jesus call even IRS agents, so to speak, to be his disciples. I recommend this commentary. The title should get your attention:

    https://twochurchesonlyblog.wordpress.com/2016/04/26/denver-snuffer-is-an-a-hole-lord-help-thou-mine-unbelief/

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    1. Underdog,

      I actually have spent significant time studying and earnestly praying about Denver's teachings. I have read about a third of his blog posts, one of his books, several of his lectures (I've listened to a couple, too), and a few of his other papers as well. I've read well over a thousand pages of his writings with an open heart and an open mind.

      There are a lot of good things in his writings. I'm not disputing that, but somehow for me the underlying current is wrong. Something is definitely off.

      I don't have the time nor the desire to do a serious search through Denver's writings to provide you with exact quotes of things that he teaches that are false, but I will try to provide you with a few examples from memory.

      Let's take a look at polygamy real quick. It's not that Denver used to just believe that Joseph practiced polygamy, he taught about it a lot. He expounded on it extensively around the time he delivered his famous 10 lectures (that Christ supposedly approved Himself). He even taught that Joseph practiced it in one of his lectures (the first one I believe) when he tried to explain the controversy surrounding Joseph's relationship with Fanny Alger. He called it a marriage and read the account by Mosiah Hancock of his father having performed the marriage. So if Christ told him what to say or at least approved it how could he have taught false doctrine in them? I say false because Denver now teaches it is false. I believe that Joseph Smith did practice polygamy and that it is in fact a true principle (though I have zero desire to practice it)

      Denver taught all about Joseph's polygamy in PTHG, expounding on the accounts of Joseph being commanded by an angel with a drawn sword to enter into the practice. He declared that Joseph had married other men's wives in an attempt to satisfy the Lord's command without having to be intimate with women besides Emma.

      Denver did an entire blog series on D&C 132 explaining how Joseph had received that revelation in chunks and how he had offered Emma a plural husband (Denver speculated that it was William Marks), but then later the Lord rescinded the offer.

      Obviously nowadays Denver has done a complete 180 on the doctrine of plural marriage. When did a true prophet such as Joseph Smith ever completely change his teachings on a topic to that extreme degree?

      It's not like Denver was just saying he believed Joseph practiced plural marriage under the direction of the Lord, but didn't understand all of the reasons or details. Had he done that and then later said he had received new knowledge that Joseph never practiced it would be a completely different story. That would be understandable.


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    2. Underdog continued...

      Then there's the second comforter doctrine. I don't have a direct quote where Denver says it is absolutely required for exaltation, but it's common knowledge that he taught that for a long time (I'm sure I could find a quote if I tried). If you're curious why don't you look for a quote where he taught this for verification.

      Striving to have one's calling and election made sure is obviously a very worth while goal and there's nothing wrong with teaching that it is possible and that one should strive to live in such a way that the Lord will come to them. However the idea that someone HAS to receive the second comforter and have their calling and election made sure in this life is blatant false doctrine.

      Here's a couple of scriptures that are relevant to the issue.

      D&C 43

      11 For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.

      12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.

      13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

      14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

      From that scripture it sounds like not even all people are given the gift of knowledge through the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, but rather just the gift to believe on the words of those who have received that witness through the Holy Ghost. If they continue faithful they too can obtain eternal life.

      Alma 46

      39 And it came to pass that there were many who died, firmly believing that their souls were redeemed by the Lord Jesus Christ; thus they went out of the world rejoicing.

      40 And there were some who died with fevers, which at some seasons of the year were very frequent in the land—but not so much so with fevers, because of the excellent qualities of the many plants and roots which God had prepared to remove the cause of diseases, to which men were subject by the nature of the climate—

      41 But there were many who died with old age; and those who died in the faith of Christ are happy in him, as we must needs suppose.

      Notice verse 39 says that many died firmly BELIEVING that their souls where redeemed by the Lord Jesus Christ. It doesn't say that they died KNOWING that they were redeemed. Then in verse 41 it says that many died of old age firm in the FAITH, not KNOWLEDGE and that they were now happy in Him. (At least as far as Alma was aware of)

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    3. Underdog continued ...

      And yet Denver has stated in a blog post not too long ago that the Book of Mormon was written for the primary purpose of documenting the many people who had found their way back into the Lord's presence in this life. He even listed several people who he claims the Book of Mormon clearly documents them having received the second comforter (with the verses he claims support this). For most of the individuals he names there is ZERO evidence in the BOM that they received the second comforter. There is no evidence that Lehi, Nephi, Jacob, Enos, Alma the Younger, and others had this experience. Lehi saw a pillar of fire and then saw (in a vision) God on His thrown and Christ and his 12 apostles during their earthly ministry. That is not the second comforter. That is a vision. Nephi also saw the savior's mortal ministry in vision, not through a personal visitation. Jacob claims to have seen the savior the same way Nephi did, so we have to assume it was also in a vision. Enos heard the Lord's voice while praying for forgiveness, but he did not see Him. This is very clear from the text so why the Book Beloved Enos I have no idea. Alma the Younger also saw the Lord while in a sin induced coma, not by a visitation making his calling and election sure. That would have been impossible in his sinful state. These are just off the top of my head.

      You said

      "We have a man (a modern Abinadi in Denver) who has awakened us to our awful situation of apostasy in the “living Church”. That’s a heartbreaking realization. The Matrix exposed! This Abinadi has “resurrected” or RESTORED these two significant doctrines"

      The first doctrine is the second comforter, not sure what the other one is (I'm thinking Baptism by fire or all is not well in Zion).

      Denver is not the first one to document these things. EVERYTHING Denver has ever put out there has been documented by others before. He just has the benefit of being in the middle of the digital age where people spend hours online and all of the controversial things are right at anyone's fingertips.

      The church being in apostasy and the need to return to Joseph's teachings has been preached by various splinter groups since around 1900. The idea gained real traction in the early 1990's as well, after the church changed the temple ordinances.

      Are the leaders of the various polygamous groups true messengers or Abinadis for waking people up?

      Lot's of people have been wide awake to the apostasy way before Denver ever did anything. In many cases Denver has ripped these people off and put a new spin on their conclusions to make them his own. In have personal knowledge that he ripped of another blogger when it comes to his teachings on the church having been rejected in Nauvoo for failing to build the Nauvoo Temple. The same idea was documented by Lyman White back in the 1850s. Seriously, very few if any of Denver's teachings that wake people up are his own.

      I could go on, with many more issues, but lets address these first. If you can refute these I can present more evidences if you'd like.



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    4. Ohh my stars ldsawakening,

      you pulled me back into it. Seriously can facts be owned? You say Denver 'ripped' people off by using information they put out on a public forum.

      If you want to talk about ripping people off for 'information' you might consider Nephi as he ripped off Laban.

      As for the polygamy thing, when a child is taught about where babies come from, they are told any number of different things. When they are older and can learn more, they drop what was understood in their early years and move on.

      Why you resent Denver is a mystery to me. It isn't validated in what you have provided here.

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  88. You are a mystery to me, Anonymous. On the one hand you claim to have had your calling and election made sure. That’s a wonderful thing. That’s something I aspire to when the Lord sees that I’m ready. On the other hand you’ve made a great many curious statements and arguments here in the Comments section of Adrian’s blog—some which seem at odds with the gospel of Jesus Christ from the scriptures, some which seem at odds with what Denver, Adrian and others are teaching in the context of a modern-day renewed restoration and some which seem at odds with common sense.

    My initial expectation of someone who claims to have met Jesus Christ would be that their words would compliment in some way those of prophets who came before. I admire when messengers in the scriptures come out and say something like, “God told me to tell you something and here it is . . .” Such an approach engages our faith and invites our pondering and prayer to verify the message.

    What I hear from you sounds like someone freelancing, someone making stuff up, someone digging at those who are inclined to consider Denver’s teachings. If God told you to do any of this, come out and say so, friend. Otherwise you’re left like the rest of us to reason and attempt to persuade others to your viewpoint. Please take no offense that you haven’t persuaded me. Because I’ve read your arguments here I have prayed for your happiness, God’s forgiveness for you and your contribution to the path of light here in mortality.

    One of my favorite scriptures is Isaiah 55:8–9:

    8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord.

    9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts. (NRSV)

    I love this insight because it opens the possibility of literally anything existing or manifesting on the mortal plane and it being in harmony with the mind of God, even stuff that confuses us, disturbs us, alarms us or threatens us. Whatever comes from God I want to be open to it. Whatever comes from other human beings I want to test it. Because of Isaiah 55:8–9 I would hope I could accept your arguments as meaningful IF they came from God. So far your arguments haven’t seemed all that divine to me. It’s more likely that the disconnect is on my end.

    Your casual regard for Denver reminds me of the small collection of interviews by Taylor Johnatakis with folks who claim to have met Jesus Christ. That makes sense to me. The scriptures tell us that we are to obey the commandments we have until we meet the Lord, then obey whatever he asks of us as our new commandments. Perhaps Denver isn’t important to folks like that. If so, why speak ill of him? In spite of the LDS tradition of worshiping the church leaders that I was raised in I’ve embraced the truth that there is nothing about Denver that deserves our worship. I love the blog post by Christian Markham that Underdog links to, “Denver Snuffer is an A-hole; Lord Help Thou My Unbelief!” Markham makes a delightful case that compared to Jesus Christ, we’re all a-holes—so broken and sorry that it begs belief that Jesus yet loves us. If you’re one of those folks that Taylor interviewed, thank you for sharing. Either way, the very best to you and those you love.

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  89. As of this moment, there are nearly 200 comments on this post, some of them quite lengthy. I have not read them all. Some that I have read appear to be quibbling over minutia, arguing endlessly, or trying to convince others of a particular viewpoint. None of this appears productive.

    To be honest, I simply don't have time to deal with all the comments, let alone take an active role in the discussion. I would like to, but the volume is simply too high. The active arguments drown out the sincere questions, and I fear they get missed.

    Therefore, I am turning off comments for the time being. I have more to write, some of it quite important, and concern about the deluge of comment/side discussion/argument is interfering with what I need to do.

    I hope to be able to turn comments back on in the future, but that remains to be seen. Thank you all for your participation.

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